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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/30/2013 : 13:48:27

Well it's official. The closing was today and I'm the new owner of a Beneteau 361. Thanks all for the advice and kind thoughts during this process. I even paid for my slip at Sandusky Harbor Marina (#F72), so now I just have a long wait until the launch, and I have to sell my C25. I'm actually showing the C25 to someone on Sunday, and have had what I think to be pretty decent interest.

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

dreddick
Navigator

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Response Posted - 01/30/2013 : 14:06:17

Woo-hoo! Congrats.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2013 : 15:02:45

Congratulations! I'm looking forward to meeting you and seeing your new toy. Are you going to name her Ben's Eteau or is that just too easy?

Edited by - John Russell on 01/30/2013 15:03:03

Tradewind
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Response Posted - 01/30/2013 : 16:01:38

Congrats!! Nice boat.

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szymek
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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2013 : 18:12:49

Congrats! Looking forward to hearing your impression from first sail and some pix!

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 09:18:19

hehe...thanks. No John, that's not what we named her. We named her Viking Kitty, sort of a tribute to the Immigrant Song by Led Zeppelin. I'm certainly looking forward to trying her out too, and to trying out different docking techniques. That's what has me a bit anxious. I can't wait to meet all the Sandusky Harbor forum members too. No one down in the Columbus club participates in the forum.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 10:18:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 I'm certainly looking forward to trying her out too, and to trying out different docking techniques. That's what has me a bit anxious. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ben, that was the most intimidating part for me, too, when I moved from outboard to inboard power. Since then I have helped several guys learn how to handle their boats around the docks, from C27s to a Beneteau 43. There are two techniques that you need to learn; how to back into a slip, and how to rotate a boat in a very tight space. If you can perform those two maneuvers, you'll be able to handle almost any situation. If the conditions are ever so bad that you doubt that you can enter the marina and put the boat in the slip safely, then the better choice is to drop an anchor outside and wait for the conditions to improve.

If you'd like some help, let me know, and I'll be glad to drive up for a day and teach you those techniques. I will be in this area (Dayton) until at least around mid-March, and maybe a little later, depending on weather.

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 10:50:00

Thanks Steve. If you're around town in the summer, I might take you up on that. But I'm afraid we won't be in the water until May 1 at the earliest. I don't think the marina launches boats before that.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 12:02:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 Thanks Steve. If you're around town in the summer, I might take you up on that. But I'm afraid we won't be in the water until May 1 at the earliest. I don't think the marina launches boats before that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll be in Maryland for the summer by May 1, but would suggest you either contact a sailing instructor in Cleveland for a 1-2 hour on-your-own-boat session, or, you might find a local sailor on our forum or on the sailnet forum who would volunteer to teach you a little inboard boat handling. I wouldn't think a professional instructor should cost you more than $2-300., and it would be well worth that cost to avoid damaging your boat and to have the skill to handle it smartly in your new marina.

Enjoy your new boat, Ben! If I ever buy another one, it will probably be a Beneteau. There's a lot to like about them.

Edited by - on

redviking
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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 13:47:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 I'm certainly looking forward to trying her out too, and to trying out different docking techniques. That's what has me a bit anxious. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ben, that was the most intimidating part for me, too, when I moved from outboard to inboard power. Since then I have helped several guys learn how to handle their boats around the docks, from C27s to a Beneteau 43. There are two techniques that you need to learn; how to back into a slip, and how to rotate a boat in a very tight space. If you can perform those two maneuvers, you'll be able to handle almost any situation. If the conditions are ever so bad that you doubt that you can enter the marina and put the boat in the slip safely, then the better choice is to drop an anchor outside and wait for the conditions to improve.

If you'd like some help, let me know, and I'll be glad to drive up for a day and teach you those techniques. I will be in this area (Dayton) until at least around mid-March, and maybe a little later, depending on weather.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I never back in... I prefer the butt clenching at the beginning of the journey, not at the end.

Sten

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Ben
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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 14:39:47

Thanks for the recommedation, Steve; and you're right; $2-300 dollars for proper instruction is money well spent when considering costs of potential damage. I think I would like to back into the slip, but I'm not sure if that's allowed at Sandusky Harbor Marina. I looked at a bunch of the pictures on their website, and didn't see any boats that were backed in.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 14:40:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 [quote]I never back in... I prefer the butt clenching at the beginning of the journey, not at the end.

Sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I almost always back in, singlehanded. It's all in knowing how. Like many things, there's a "trick" to it, and once you know the trick, it's easy. If you get up to the Chesapeake Bay this summer, give me a shout out, Sten, and I can teach you in a few minutes. It's easy to do, but it's hard to find a person who either can or will teach you how to do it.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 15:02:57

Well I live about 15 to 20 minutes from SHM. Is the boat going to be launched at SHM? Did they give you a launch date? I'm not sure when I will launch but if you need help on launch day I can help. I'm not sure how you drive up here but I might be able to give you some direction to make it easier.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 15:28:43

So Ben, how about posting a notice at your new dock for a wine tasting party at your new slip. People mill around wondering who is paying for the wine and 30 minutes into the soirée you pull into your new slip with your new boat. I think people will hail the new guy and be there to help "catch" if things don't go well.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 15:37:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by panhead1948
 Well I live about 15 to 20 minutes from SHM. Is the boat going to be launched at SHM? Did they give you a launch date? I'm not sure when I will launch but if you need help on launch day I can help. I'm not sure how you drive up here but I might be able to give you some direction to make it easier.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm a little further than Kevin but not too far so, let us know. In the past SHM has started launching the week after Easter. Not sure about this year. Since I didn't splash last year, I'm anxious for an early season.

BTW, I just looked at the pix on Yachtworld. She looks great. You should see if Freeman-Eckley will give you copies of the pix before they take them down from the site.

Edited by - John Russell on 01/31/2013 16:00:11

John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 15:51:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 .... I think I would like to back into the slip, but I'm not sure if that's allowed at Sandusky Harbor Marina. I looked at a bunch of the pictures on their website, and didn't see any boats that were backed in.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've never seen anything prohibiting it. I've noticed that most of those backed in are stinkpots. You'll notice, however, there is a length of angle iron extending 45 degrees from the dock supporting the slip finger. Most are covered by decking, some aren't. That limits the width of the slip near the dock a bit.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2013 : 22:31:25

I've always preferred bow-in, for line handling (if there's only a finger dock on one side). Of course, with an outboard, it's less risky to go bow-in, since something like a stalled engine won't result in a crunched engine, but I've had to do it stern-in with my C-25 (in a docking arrangement that was too weird to get into here--not shown in the signature photo below).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/31/2013 22:33:14

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 06:09:07

Backing in is especially helpful when there is a strong wind blowing into the slip. As we know, sailboats don't generally back very well, and the prop doesn't brake very effectively in reverse. If you go in bow-first too fast, with the wind astern, you can't stop the boat and it might smack the dock. If you back in with a strong wind blowing you into the slip, you line the boat up with the slip, get it started in, and the wind will blow the boat in the rest of the way. If the maneuver starts to go askew, you can use the power of the engine and prop in forward gear to either line it up or to pull out and try again.

If you can back into a slip, and rotate a boat as if it was on a turntable, you can handle almost any docking situation safely with those two skills. If it's too rough to get in safely, you can drop the hook and wait, usually only an hour, for the worst of the conditions to abate.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 11:06:39

Steve: If you think you could write down your backing up "tricks" for an inboard boat in text I'd love to read them. I'm comfortable turning my bigger boat in place on it's keel, but backing up is still sometimes iffy.

I don't think I can legally back into my dock. Here is a good image of what a Shilshole dock looks like:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dKok25glEy0/TE5sWZveoII/AAAAAAAAGMQ/GjE3ULpY-dk/s1600/shilshole.jpg

(I didn't inline the image because it is large)

The corner of each slip is clipped by a dock box and a small diagonal deck with a dinghy rack. This works great under the bow, but would get in the way of the transom and cause my boat to stick out into the fairway. There is one backed in motorboat in that image, and Shilshole Marina technically would force them to move to a larger slip if they always kept it that way. I have a 29.5' long boat (measured the way Shilshole measures boats) in a 30' slip, so there is very little wiggle room for me.

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 12:35:22

At least half of the big sailboats in my marina back in to their slips - Beneteaux, J-boats, Catalina's, Island Packet 32 & 42.

They all seem to rotate on a dime and back right in. I suppose these guys & gals really know what they are doing, but I didn't think it was difficult!

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islander
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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 13:26:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I suppose these guys & gals really know what they are doing<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bow thusters?

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dreddick
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 13:53:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I suppose these guys & gals really know what they are doing<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bow thusters?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I could afford these...

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 14:03:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Steve: If you think you could write down your backing up "tricks" for an inboard boat in text I'd love to read them. I'm comfortable turning my bigger boat in place on it's keel, but backing up is still sometimes iffy.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's easy to demonstrate, but it isn't so easy to explain, but I'll try.

There are two ways to back an inboard powered sailboat and steer it. (1) You can get it going fast enough in reverse to have steerageway. In that case, you steer it with the tiller or wheel, and it will back either to port or to starboard, as you wish. When the boat has enough speed in reverse to have steerageway, you really have to keep a firm grip on the tiller or wheel, because there is a much stronger pressure on the rudder in reverse. Also, when you steer it in reverse in this manner, it takes awhile to re-learn which way to turn the wheel or to push the tiller. Many people find that it helps if they face the transom while backing up, instead of trying to look over their shoulder. If the boat has a wheel, it helps to stand on the opposite side of the steering pedestal, looking aft. If the boat has a tiller, then you point the rudder in the direction that you want the boat to go. Steering becomes a little more intuitive if you face the transom. The other small problem is that you have to re-learn the throttle and gear shift levers.

Using this method, you should put the gear shifter in neutral when you are near the entrance to the slip, and let the boat coast in the rest of the way, but be prepared to shift into forward for a moment, and give it a brief shot of throttle, if you need to kill the boat's speed or put on the brakes.

This method, of course, requires practice. A good way to practice is to anchor a boat fender somewhere where you can maneuver freely, and pretend that it is the dock piling at the entrance to your slip. When you can repeatedly steer close alongside that fender, you will be ready to back into your slip.

(2) Alternatively, you can steer the boat by using prop walk. When you do that, the wheel or rudder really only has a very slight effect in steering the boat. When you back into a slip by using prop walk, the key is to line the boat up properly before you start backing up. The idea is that, if the boat is in the right position to begin with, the prop walk will cause the boat to back to port, and it can't go anywhere except backwards and to port, and that means it will back into the slip. (A few boats are designed to back straight, and a few will walk to starboard, instead of to port, but the majority, by far, will back to port.)

When lining up to back into a slip using prop walk, I approach my slip by steering very slowly, close alongside the outer pilings of the slips. (I have previously shifted into neutral gear, and the boat is coasting.) When my boat reaches the slip just prior to mine, I start to turn the boat to starboard, so that the bow is heading away from my slip at about a 45 degree angle. When the stern is very close to the piling at the entrance to my slip, I shift into reverse and give the throttle a brief shot. (When the boat starts to move backwards, you should shift into neutral, and let the boat coast into the slip. If you continue in reverse gear, the boat will continue to turn to port by prop walk, tending to go sideways into the slip. By shifting into neutral, you will avoid that.) If I have aligned the boat perfectly, it will back up, just barely missing that piling, and enter the slip. More often than not, I don't align it perfectly, so, if it appears that I'm going to hit that piling, there are two ways I can deal with it. Usually, I just reach out with one hand and push the stern away from the piling, so that the boat continues coasting back into the slip. Alternatively, you can shift into forward gear, give the boat a very brief shot of throttle, and then shift into reverse and give it another brief shot of throttle. That should cause the transom to kick to port enough to clear the piling. When doing this maneuver, you don't need to turn the wheel. It should remain hard to starboard. Remember, it isn't the rudder that is turning the boat - it is the prop torque.

I don't always back the boat all the way into the slip, using engine power. Often the boat won't drift all the way in to the slip. I always have a boat hook handy when I enter my slip. When the boat stops drifting back, I reach out with the boat hook and grab a lifeline stanchion or other piece of hardware on the boat in the next slip, and pull my boat the rest of the way into the slip.

This method obviously also requires practice, and you can practice it the same way that I described above. When I use this method, I steer from my normal position behind the steering pedestal, looking over my shoulder. You can do it either way, depending on how you feel the most comfortable.

These techniques sound complicated when you try to describe them verbally, but it's much easier to demonstrate than to describe. My suggestion is that you try them, and if you can't figure them out, either find some local sailor who can demonstrate them for you, or hire an instructor to show you how to do them.

The first method is easier to describe, but, personally, I prefer using the second method. The first method is done at higher speed, and, since I am usually singlehanding, I feel more comfiortable if things aren't happening so fast.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/01/2013 14:06:51

dreddick
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Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 15:13:37

I am with you Ben on docking a boat that is 10+ feet longer, 3+ feet wider with a wheel and inboard...that will seem daunting the first few times.

At our marina all of the boats seem to dock bow in. Most line up and go straight in - faster than looks comfortable to me - and then they rev the engine in reverse and appear to stop fairly quickly. I always subscribed to the 'don't approach the dock faster than you want to hit it' way of thinking with the 25, though there were exceptions when the winds weren't favorable.

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 16:32:05

Thanks Steve.

My boat actually has very little prop walk, which is nice most of the time but does make using prop walk to your advantage very difficult. I just changed props actually (going from a 2-blade 16" prop to a 3-blade 13" prop) and need to try it again to see if that has any new or different effect. I have experienced more prop walk on other boats.

My boat requires a good amount of speed to get good steerage in reverse. The rudder has a limited swing (it is like keeping the tiller inside the leg area on a Catalina 25) so it requires more speed then I'm sometimes comfortable with to get good steerage. The good news is that it is pretty well balanced on motor, so if you go in reverse it goes straight and not in random directions.

I'm going out tomorrow and may play some more with reverse depending on my crew's mood.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/01/2013 : 16:51:19

When you launch, you will have to back out of the well. Many boats of your size and larger simply back all the way down the "A" fairway until they reach the corner where there's a LOT more room to maneuver. Remember, the photo you posted is old. Half of the "A" dock seen in that photo is no longer there.

In fact, that gives me an idea. The old "A" dock was shortened to allow for 50'slips on the "B" dock. Depending on when you launch, I'd bet that there will be at least a few of those unoccupied. You could take advantage of that and use them for practice before you go to the tighter confines of "F" dock. You could check with Jerry in the office but I would imagine he'd say it was OK if the slips are empty.

Speaking of launching, you'll find Rick to be extremely patient and helpful. He's the guy that operates the travelift and is in charge on launch day. Let him know that this will be your first time with a boat of this size.

Edited by - John Russell on 02/01/2013 16:51:50

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