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(NOT) dropping the mast while on jackstands

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 03/25/2013 : 19:44:45

I need to drop my mast, as I'd like to perform some maintenance on the tangs, swages, lights and windex.
I talked to the yard boss who said "we don't have a crane, so its not an option". I later asked whether two of the mechanics would be willing to help at their hourly rate? to which he advised, "I would never drop the mast while the boat is up on poppets/jack stands. He was afraid that the boat would become unstable and fall off the stands.
I had never thought about that scenario. I have seen high profile boats get blown off jack stands before. Never pretty.
What do you think? Is there any likelihood this would happen, or is the yard boss just brushing me off - as if to say "my guys have a lot more important things to do"?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/25/2013 : 21:18:12

I don't know about his concern (it's not a lot of weight, but it is cantilevered way out there), but it seems harder to do masthead work when the mast is 10' or higher in the air while on the boat. It's a lot easier when the boat is in the water and the lowered mast ends up at chest height.

I am surprised that the yard doesn't have a boom truck or crane.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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662 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 04:35:18

The mast is insignificant in relation to overall boat weight, EVEN when cantilevered. So I wouldn't worry about that.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 05:32:55

It must be spring.....

EMT conduit, block, 3/8 line, drop it yourself....

watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 05:46:33

I don't think the mast is the concern. Having 2-3 guys moving around the decks might be enough to move the boat when it's on the jack stands, if the stands aren't adjusted well. If they're adjusted properly, it shouldn't matter. Functionally, the trailer is the equivalent of jack stands, and the boat isn't unstable on it's trailer. But, if the yard boss won't allow his guys to help you lower the mast, then you'll have to do it yourself. You can do that by using one of the following mast-raising systems. The first one (an A-frame) has been used successfully by many members. That's the system that is illustrated in the video posted by DavyJ.

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/bearsad1.asp
http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/bsmast.asp
http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/nymastup.asp

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/26/2013 05:52:16

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 06:07:06

In the video, my boat is obviously set up for this. Here are step by step instructions, if you decide to do it yourself:

Mast lowering /raising steps

Mast lowering

1) Remove mainsail slugs from mast track, I leave sail on boom but you might also remove mainsail at this time.

2) Move main halyard (I shackle it to the lifeline at gate) You could keep also keep it attached straight down mast.

3) Shackle jib halyard to base of bow pulpit (in my case, halyard is on outside of jib sheets)

4) Loosen upper shrouds (in my case 5 turns)

5) Loosen forward lower shrouds (in my case 10 turns) . As each lower forward shroud is loosened it then gets shackled to the tang on the a-frame and then the a-frame is attached to the chain plate.

6) Loosen rear stay (I tighten the mainsheet to put some slack on rear stay then I release my rear stay with a quick release shroud lever)

7) Remove boom from mast( I lay it on deck, you would probably remove it all together). Then move mainsheet and topping lift if so equipped.

8) Make sure that your jib halyard is tight and cleated ( note: my jib halyard runs to cockpit)

9) If you have roller furling, make sure that the furling line is loose so that it can run out as the mast comes down.

Note: At this time your rig should be loose, your a-frame is attached to both forward lower chain plates, both lower forward shrouds are attached tangs at ends of a-frame and your jib halyard is cleated tight. You should also have your a-frame line running from fore end of a-frame through a good sized block shackled to stem. This line should run to your starboard winch. Keep at least two wraps on winch and cleat it tight. Your forestay should be loose enough that you can remove the clevis pin.

10) Remove clevis pin from forestay, then connect forestay to forward end of a-frame. The mast cannot move because the jib halyard is still tightly cleated

11) Un-cleat a-frame line but keep control of it, un-cleat, but keep control of jib halyard. Now slowly release both lines and pull down on rear stay. Mast will begin coming down, keep slowly releasing a-frame line. If you have helpers, have them feed out furling line and jib halyard. The jib halyard can also be used as brake. Continue to lower the mast to the point you need. ( I have a permanent mast support attached to stern rail).

Mast raising

Note: I never remove my mast from the boat. If you have removed the mast you will need to reconnect shrouds, stays and jib halyard to the same condition and loose tension they where in when you lowered the mast.

1) A-frame line is on starboard winch with three or four wraps. Use winch handle and start winching a-frame line. (note: I use a larger than normal winch handle for this purpose). The first few turns on the winch will be the most difficult as you are taking the full weight of the mast, as the mast gets higher the force will be less and less. As the mast goes up you should not notice any more resistance than at the beginning. If you do, most likely a shroud or stay is caught on something on deck. As you raise the mast have helper(s) bring in the jib halyard and furling line.

2) With mast in vertical position, tighten and then cleat jib halyard.

At this point everything else is just a reversal of the steps to lower the mast

3) Disconnect forestay from a-frame then connect to stem.

4) Reattach mainsheet and topping lift to boom

5) Attach boom to mast

6) Re-tension rear stay

7) Re-tension upper shrouds

8) Disconnect a-frame from chain plates

9) Attach and re-tension forward lower shrouds

10) Move a-frame

11) Feed mainsail slugs into mast track and shackle main halyard

12) Remove jib halyard from bow pulpit and go sailing

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 06:22:38

I have used Davy J's method to lower my mast while the boat is on the hard in a cradle. I did it myself and while I was terrified from about step 9 1/2 through 10 while lowering, it worked just fine. My boat feels rock solid in its cradle which may give it a bit more support than jackstands.

I plan on lowering the mast this year as well but I intend to wait until the boat is in the water because, as mentioned previously, it is much easier to work on the mast when standing on the dock.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 07:22:14

I agree with the comment about apes clambering about being the issue. SWMBO and I drop it with the 2 of us fairly easily though. As long as there is no cross breeze, there is no issue. If it starts moving on a lateral plane, the boat will rock a little if e are in the water, so maybe thats enough to pop out a stand that isn't set properly???

I would wait for a day with no wind and DIY this. A forklift may also be an option if you can't get a crane.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 07:49:44

Lowering the mast on stands CAN'T be worse than doing it on a trailer. Sorry. 3 people or not. I think he actually has problems with it for insurance reason (just a guess). Our local yards won't raise/lower masts just for that reason (freshwater motor boat lake). They'll put your boat in, but don't want to deal with masts (implications for mast/rigging failures, and anything that can go wrong with raising/lowering).

I lowered mine myself with this...

Yes it works fine raising the mast as well. The key is to find something to support the mast at the stern, at least 6 feet off the cockpit floor, then pull up using the mainsheet tackle, and you're golden.

Might make more sense to see this:

Edited by - shnool on 03/26/2013 07:53:40

hewebb
Admiral

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761 Posts

Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 08:01:30

I think I would lash the stands together to prevent movement then lower the mast. If you can get/make an A frame & crutch it will be easy, if not get four willing volunteers. I have heard some folks used the boom as a gin pole but have not seen how they have rigged it. Before I built the A frame and stern crutch it took four of us to control the stepping. Now I can do it by myself if the wind is calm and boat is level side to side. I use the boat winch. If you don't have a furler use the jib halyard

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 08:20:58

I've dropped the mast singlehanded two times using a simple, cheap, 12 foot tall, A-frame made of 2x4's. It was tedious getting everything set up, but it was safe and straightforward lowering and raising the mast.

Chris' idea is the simplest - Get one strong helper to guide it down towards the cabintop. You would slowly release the long line from the block on the bow that goes to the top of the mast (jib halyard extension) while standing in the cockpit. You catch it together with the helper on the cabintop. The helper keeps it centered and replaces the A-frame.

I lowered the mast once on the hard and once in the water with a 5 knot breeze from starboard. That time the wind pushed the mast to port, and I had to swing it back to center before it got all the way down.

To hold the mast and to slide it forward after lowering it, I used an 8-foot 2x4 crutch with a 4" wide PVC roller on a dowel at the top. The crutch was attached to the rudder gudgeons.

This next time I plan to shorten the crutch and place it at the transom in the cockpit with a simple stand. That would eliminate the steps for removing and replacing the rudder and tiller. I need to replace my 35 year old VHF antenna cable.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 08:35:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 It must be spring.....

EMT conduit, block, 3/8 line, drop it yourself....

watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Davy,

What do you use to attach the conduit to your upper chainplates?

The hinged mast step I have only allows the mast to lower forward, which has always worked fine for me since I use the boom and mainsheet as a gin-pole. And I lower it into a fork lashed to the bow pulpit.

The only tricky part is keeping the mast and boom steady side to side. I am thinking having your conduit a-frame rigged to steady the boom might be a simple solution. I have used lines in the past running from the chainplates to the end of the boom, but since the pivot point for the mast and the pivot point for the lines to the boom are different, the tension gets lost as the mast is lowered.

Also,do you use anything to steady the mast itself side to side as it is lowered? Mine is tall rig and the extrusion is larger and heavier than a standard rig. Initially Confetti was a Standard rig, but when that mast failed and was upgraded to a tall rig I was very surprised at how much the forces increased when stepping and unstepping the mast. Its still just a two man job, and has always gone well (knock on wood), but the side to side steadying of the mast is what that 2nd man does....

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 08:41:51

I just re-read DavyJ's excellent description.

My A-frame line was rigged from the A-frame to the block at the bow stem and aft through the main halyard clutch on the starboard cabintop to the cockpit. When dropping the mast, I released the line by opening the clutch and slowly letting out the line from the starboard jib sheet winch (3 wraps).

I just recalled now that while raising the mast, I chose to lift the mast off the crutch while continually tensioning the line through the main halyard clutch on the cabintop. I lifted and tensioned the line until the mast was as high as I could reach while standing on both cockpit benches and pushing it up over my head. Like DavyJ indicated, the first effort needs the most force, so lifting it by hand saves a huge mechanical effort on the A-frame and the line to get it back up in the air about a third of the way up. Lifting it by hand is easy in comparison to using the A-frame to start it going up.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 08:43:28

DavyJ's A-frame using conduit is SIMPLE to make, and not at all expensive. Worked great for me. I also like his mast support at the stern as it doesn't hinder the rudder/tiller.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 08:53:38

To answer your principal concern, I believe there is little danger of the boat becoming unstable on its stands during this procedure, unless the mast swings wildly to one side, and that would be most risky if you have a roller furled sail adding to the weight of the mast. With no wind, you should be fine dropping the mast while on jack stands.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 15:45:30

The conduit I used was attached to the forward lower chain plates after removing the forward lower shrouds. I used 2 pieces of 10 ft conduit, cut down to 9 ft. 4" for the A-frame arms. I then cut one of the 8" pieces left over in half making two 4" pieces and drilled two sets of holes straight through in each piece. The lower holes need to match up to the height of the holes in the chain plates so the pipe is just barely off the deck and a clevis pin can pass through the pipe anchoring the piece to the chain plate. The second set of holes need to be drilled so that the bottom of the A-frame arms can be attached to the 4" pieces with another long clevis pin and still rotate up to a vertical position. That requires on-boat measuring with the A-frame laying on the foredeck to get the right angle so it won't bind going up. I placed the upper holes about 1" from the top of the 4" pieces. I bought the clevis pins at HD, the kind with multiple holes down the length of the pin.
One other thing, you will want to flatten about 4" of each end of the A-frame legs to drill holes in them and to bend them to the proper angles.
See the drawing in the Tech tips here (also listed by Steve above):
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/bearsad1.asp

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/26/2013 16:04:20

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/26/2013 : 20:24:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hewebb
 If you don't have a furler use the jib halyard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The furler doesn't matter--the jib halyard is free if the sail isn't bent on. But the aluminum foil on Bruce's Hood furler (how did I know??) adds somewhat to the complication of dropping and stepping the mast by hand. I'm thinking it calls for another pair of hands just to take care of the furler--at least until he's become skilled enough to prove he doesn't need that.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/26/2013 20:26:40

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 05:19:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Davy, What do you use to attach the conduit to your upper chainplates?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Here is a photo of the end of the a-frame. The connection is made from the conduit.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But the aluminum foil on Bruce's Hood furler (how did I know??) adds somewhat to the complication of dropping and stepping the mast by hand. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As long as he keeps tension on the line to the a-frame, there won't be any sag in the foil. You can see this in the video, the foil only goes slack when the mast rests on the rear support.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but the side to side steadying of the mast is what that 2nd man does....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In my set-up, the forward lowers prevent the mast from swinging side to side.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/27/2013 : 12:37:28

I have been in quite a few yards in Florida and not one would allow any mast work when the boat was on stands. Usually they drop the mast while it is in the travel lift sling or use a crane to drop it. I think I would wait until it is back in the water or on a trailer and then drop the mast.

Edited by - frog0911 on 03/27/2013 12:39:36

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/28/2013 : 04:40:45

Wow! This is all great info and words of encouragement. Aside from Dave's advice about the furler, seems like:
1. No danger dropping the mast with the right setup on a calm windless day.
2. Good to have at least 1 helper.
3. The crutch to catch the mast located at the transom is a key item.
Once the mast is horizontal even though it naturally extends out beyond the end of the transom, it can be moved back and forth to access the top end to work on the fittings.
What is the optimum length for the legs of the A-frame? The distance between the forestay chainplate and the forward lower shroud chainplate?

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/28/2013 : 05:33:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What is the optimum length for the legs of the A-frame?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The optimum length will be from the lower forward connection to a spot just right behind the stem. I originally had mine that length but, then had to shorten the length of the arms, because for me, the longer a-frame would hit the bridge at very high tides. I shortened them about a foot.

Edited by - Davy J on 03/28/2013 05:35:21

Davy J
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Response Posted - 03/28/2013 : 05:46:34

Here is a related video I made of the parts I use to lower the mast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsLxujYRsMQ

Unfortunately, I never made part three, maybe later....

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 03/28/2013 : 09:40:43

Mine is 10' and the top is hinged. I secure each foot to the forward chain plates with 1/4" StaysetX loops a couple of inches ahead of the c.p.'s. A long bolt near the top limits the spread and provides an anchor for a carabiner for attaching the Mainsheet and halyard. The crutch has a hinged foot that sits on the cockpit sole and fits snugly between the seats. It is as high as I can lift the mast while standing on the cockpit seats.. I pass a line through the scuppers to secure the base fore and aft and then up to secure it to the traveller. A line near the top goes to this stern cleats for additional lateral control.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/29/2013 : 15:37:30

Brian G recommended that I get a piece of board (1x2 or 3x4) strapped parallel to the bottom of the mast to tie the furler foils and the heavy furler body to. As the mast goes horizontal, I'd have to strap the board in place, then disconnect the furler from the A frame and secure it to the board. Since the furler is a few feet longer than the mast best bet is to allow the board to extend a few feet beyond the bottom of the mast to support the weight of the furler.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 13:47:51

Bruce, Curious as to what you ended up doing???? I never got to put my 2 cents in but for what its worth I used 2x4s with the pipe nipples for the forward lower attachment like Davy Js. I used the mainsheet attached between the stem fitting and the A frame then attached the forestay to the A frame. This allows you to stand at the bow and lower away stopping anytime with the cleat to check things and also gives you a line of sight straight back to see if the mast is going to either side. My furler is aluminum sections so with all the tension on the forstay it stays straight all the way down then I just tied it to the mast. One helper (Sara) stood on the side of the mast to gently push a bit if the mast started to go a little off center. I like this method because I really didn't want anybody in the cockpit and having the mast falling on them if things went wrong. Worked out really easy for me and when it was down I thought, Jeez.. That wasn't bad. It went back up just as well

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 15:01:30

Scott
Last Saturday I measured the dimensions for the A-frame legs at 9'4" between the furler and the forward chainplates. I also measured for the crutch in the aft of the cockpit. Next rainy weekend I'll fabricate the pieces.

Edited by - on

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