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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

rudder

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markolito
1st Mate

Member Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2003 : 17:43:25

hello all.

My freind bought a 1989wk and on the first "rough" day the rudder split in half at the waterline. He had it re-fiberglassed and added two big stainless steel sheets which a hurricane could not break. It looks really well done (i'll try to get pics). Has not hampered the handling either.

I got a 1980sk and other than a pintle breaking, the rudder has held up. It is in rough shape however, and it's days are counted. I am paranoid about it after having lived the trauma of my freind's breaking. I wanted to know what my options are..

I am a little low on cash seeing as though i am planning a haul out.

I could...
1)re-enforce the existing rudder with steel like my freind.
2)Find another way or re-enforcing mine.
3)Ask you guys for help, and knowledge on any other low-cost alternatives. Spares anyone might have.. that kinda thing

Thanks
-marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2003 : 18:08:26

Marco,

What do you mean when you say the rudder is in "rough shape"?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2003 : 18:12:04

Hi Marco,

My old boat ESSAYONS had a reinforced rudder.

The original rudder broke and the original owner put stainless steel supports on the new rudder. It was ugly but worked.

Catalina is aware of this problem.

The rudders are not well sealed from the elements and water gets in and weakens them.

The 88,89,90 models had a balanced rudder. There is a section of the rudder blade that is forward of the axis of rotation. This makes steering easier but puts more stress on the rudder. As they get older and "wet" they can eventually break.

Your older rudder is not balanced but will still be subject to water intrusion. Look at the seam on the leading and trailing edge of the rudder. If it is parted and swelled up you've probably got water in there.

I would recomend calling Catalina and asking their opinion on how to maintain the rudder. Find out how much $ a new one would cost.

Don't quote me on this but the guy I bought ESSAYONS from said a new rudder was around $400.00. That was in the 1990s. I don't know what a new one costs today.

I hope this helps,

Paul

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/29/2003 18:15:10

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 09:30:20

Don,
here are a couple of pics i took when the pintle broke...
i guess you can see what i mean by rough shape...

<img src="http://www.kaotica.com/marco/front.jpg" border=0>
<img src="http://www.kaotica.com/marco/side.jpg" border=0>

I need more alternatives...

thanks
-marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 09:40:12

Hey Marco,

A relatively inexpensive, but possibly time consuming "fix" would be to fabricate a new rudder using marine plywood, epoxy, and perhaps some fiberglass. I'd probably start by "gluing" two pieces of 1" marine plywood together. Use the old balanced rudder as a pattern. Then do a rough cutout with a sabersaw or bandsaw. Shape with block planes and sandpaper to a smooth finish. And then fiberglass the exterior for added strength and sealing out the water. Install the pintles and you're all set.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 12:17:47

Marco,

Judging from your photos, your rudder doesn't look that bad. If I were you, I'd grind out the hairline cracks using a Dremel tool, and fill them with Marinetex. I'm not sure what the problem is on the side. It looks like it might be blistered. If so, grind it out, let it dry out, and then fill it also with Marinetex. Then keep an eye on it for the next couple years to see if the problem recurs.

I think rudder cracks are often caused by trailer-launching the boat with the rudder in place. When the boat rolls backwards off the trailer and into the water, it puts tremendous stress on the rudder. I keep the rudder in the cockpit when I trailer-launch the boat, and then install it after the boat is in the water.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/30/2003 12:20:06

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 17:02:05

I agree with Steve in that your rudder doesn't appear to be in too bad of shape. From the photo it doesn't appear to have the telltale split common to our rudders so I don't think you have to much to be conserned about. If it doesn't have internal rot, I'd say your issues are mainly cosmetic and can be taken care of as Steve described. After you clean it up(remove paint, fill,...etc) your rudder will probably be good as new.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 17:15:19

I dunno... I don't like that horizontal crack... It looks like something almost broke the rudder right at the pintle. The strength of the pintle strap probably saved it, but next time it may give. I suspect rot in the core around the pintle holes caused by water getting in around the bolts. The vertical crack could just be from swelling--it's pretty common--even more so on the trailing edge above the waterline, and especially if the rudder has frozen.

It also looks like the lower pintle was jammed upward, as mine was. That can be fixed by filling the elongated hole with epoxy and microfibers, and then redrilling it. The upper pintle will probably show the same problem.

If you don't mind the possibility of having to quickly ease the sheets and use your motor to regain control of the boat, you can fix the rudder and see what happens. If you want to be a little more sure of it, you should probably buy or build a new one. Both Catalina and Cataline Direct sell the balanced version, which is very nice to use. The price has jumped up and down--I think I bought it at the absolute high, as with my stock... <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Of course, the old one may work forever and a new one could break...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 18:45:40

<b>"...I don't like that horizontal crack...It looks like something almost broke the rudder right at the pintle."</b>

Dave,

Is the "horizontal crack" that you are referencing, the crack that is in the top photo that intersects the vertical crack?

These cracks to me appear more like stress cracks in the more brittle gelcoat from possible over tightening of the pintle bolts or just stress over time, than cracks caused by an expanding core.

Marco, I would carefully probe the pintle holes to check for rot and tap the rudder surfaces with a screwdriver handle to check for delamination(will sound hollow).

If you suspect that the rudder is toast and may need replacing anyway, try this just before you order a new one: Place the rudder on the ground with a 2 X 4 under each end. Next, press on the center to see if the rudder flexes/breaks. Gradually increase the amount of weight(50 - 100lbs?) and if you can't get it to flex/break with a reasonable amount of weight on it, then I think your chances of the rudder snapping while on the boat are not that great.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 20:02:18

marco,

I'd like to elaborate slightly on something a few others already mentioned. Where ever bolts go through cored fiberglass, I like to create a cast in bushing.

The process goes like this:

1.) Drill out the original hole to about twice the finished diameter.
At that point, inspect the core for moisture or rot damage. Dry out any moisture and remove any localized rot.

2.) Soak as much liquid epoxy into the exposed core as it will take up.

3.) Refill the hole with a pourable mixture of epoxy and milled glass fibers. Use masking or duct tape to contain the reinforced epoxy until it hardens. I usually slightly overfill, and then use a small drum sander attachment to carefully carve away the excess after it hardens.

4.) Redrill the original diameter holes in the original locations.

5.) If the bolt in the hole needs to be water-tight, drill a slight countersink into the epoxy bushing on the side towards the bedding compound. This will create an O-ring of goo right where it will do the most good.

This whole process protects the core from water intrusion and prevents the fasteners from crushing the core. Doing it for just one bolt seems like a bit of work. Doing it for a whole bunch of holes at once is only slightly more work. I did it to my rudder, and to every cored thru-bolt hole in my entire deck (except teak mounting screws). It was easy. Anyone who has ever had to replace a large area of rotted core will immediately appreciate that this precaution is well worth the effort.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 21:10:28

Marco,
I ditto what Don, Steve and Leon have said. Mine actually looked worse than yours. I found the cracking in the area where the pintles attach were caused by voids under the gelcoat which I filled with an epoxy/filler mixture.
Are the brown streaks a result of someone installing the pintles with steel (as opposed to stainless steel) screws?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 21:45:16

FYI: Last spring, I asked CD about their rudders and according to them, the balanced rudder was recently reduced to $428.00 w/o pintles and $443.00 w/pintles.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 22:43:05

Thank you all soo much for your input.. I am impressed!!!

I think i will go for the epoxy/filler mixture for now. like i said the rudder has been fine so far. I will clean it up, do all the tests to check if it is rotting and rebuild. I live in florida and keep the boat in a relatively exposed place, so i wanna chech the gundeons (spelling is bad) for wear, and while i am at it do the work on the rudder.

Thank you all so much for your priceless input!

-marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

mroettersr
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2003 : 00:00:51

Just to add my 2 cents. My rudder looked much better but had some cracks similar to the ones in your photo. I also had a vertical crack along the leading edge. I did as others did in opening the cracks so I could force epoxy into the voids. I also epoxied a couple layers of glass cloth along the leading edge (criss-crossed for stength) and wrapped the cloth around the rudder so it covered the rudder where the straps for the pintles are located. This was after I did essentially what Leon did relative to drilling and filling the bolt holes. The bolt holes were oblong in my rudder and had to be fixed for that reason alone. I tested the rudder in the same manner by suspending it and putting my weight on the center to see if it was strong. After some belt sanding,fairing and painting, it looked new and shows no sign a wear after last season which including some heavy weather sailing on Lake Erie. If the integrity of the core is still good, your rudder looks very repairable.

Mike Roetter
'83 C25 #3568 SK/SR
Marblehead on Lake Erie

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2003 : 00:15:21

I once built a rudder for a MacGregor 25, from scratch as Bill Holcomb mentions above. Used marine plywood and two or three layers of glass cloth and epoxy. Total cost for materials was about $175 (epoxy is pretty expensive). It worked, after a fashion, but the water flow around the rudder was very turbulent due to the foil being hand-shaped and therefore not very smooth or uniform. At speeds above 3 knots, the flow was so turbulent it would shake the tiller quite hard. Having been through the experience of having spent a lot of time and effort, and almost $200, for a big disappointment, I would save up for a new-style Factory rudder.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

eric.werkowitz
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2003 : 19:10:28

Marco,

One thing to consider is that you have the old blade style rudder. The newer balanced design is like power steering. My old rudder snapped after I had tried reinforcing it with fiberglass and polyester resin. So, my attempt at repair was unsuccessful. Afterward, I built a rudder patterned after the balanced design and with a NACA foil profile that I worked with a router and a simple jig. I think I did it for about $100 as I didn't use marine grade ply, just exterior plywood (it uses the same glue). Although this had more voids, I filled most of them by drilling holes through the two layers of 5/8 ply once I glued them together and poured these holes full of epoxy. The epoxy filled the voids nicely.

I would suggest you do a repair to your present rudder, but by all means start building a replacement or saving your money to buy one. Otherwise you may find yourself losing a lot of sailing time if the current rudder fails this summer.

Just a thought.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - on

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