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Blowing fuses-Cat 25-1977

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tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/24/2013 : 11:14:09

Hi gang. I am flummuxed. I put on the new Hella combo steaming/deck lite, a new anchor lite (added) and all new wiring from the panel, through the cabin roof, stainless 4 prong plug for mast connect. all work fine except the steaming lite keeps blowing fuses. It's a 10 amp, first blowing 15 amp fuses, put in a 25 and it blew too. Wires all show continuity. All 12 or 14 gua. New 4 wire cable from panel to mast connect and up to steam/deck light. New 2 wire from steam/deck lite up to anchor light. 3 of the four are + and go to each lite, black brings all neg. together and returns to -bus. Can't figure what else to test. I haven't turned all on at the same time, only 1. Help! Thanks in advance, Dave

Edited by - on

Capri-25 Editor
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2013 : 11:42:39

You have to have a short somewhere. Common issues are + and - get reversed somewhere in the hookup. So black goes to + at the light...

I have to put in a steaming/deck light, it'd be real helpful.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2013 : 14:53:39

You say you have a two-wire cable going from the steaming light to the anchor light. I don't understand why you have any wires going from the steaming light to the anchor light. Of the three + wires from the four wire plug, three should go to the positive side of each light. All the negatives are ganged together and return to the one negative wire at the plug. If you have a separate two wire cable going to the anchor light the positive wire should be connected to one of the three positive wires in the four wire cable and the negative to the ganged negative connection.

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tweeet65
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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2013 : 15:04:28

If the light has 2 leads of the same color, I assume it doesn't matter if they are + or _. Also, Smitten, my diagram is identical to the one drawn. My 4 wire cable ends at the steamer, then I pulled a 2 wire cable to the top for the anchor light. The black joins all of the blacks, the red, white and green are all positive. I wonder if I have (in spite of meticulous care), run the black(+) from the steamer light to black (-) instead of green in the 4 wire cable. I will check all these again.

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tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/25/2013 : 07:23:25

UPDATE: I have again traced every wire from the steaming lite back to the board, I can find no irregularity (again, my wiring is identical to the drawing above). All of the wiring is new so I can't imagine the short is from bad insulation. If the switch is bad, it just wouldn't lite, right? A bad switch isn't going to blow the fuse? I have the "12 volt bible" and he talks about adding amps to a circuit and it overloading but in this case, there is only the 10 amp steamer light affected, I am only turning it on.

By the by, is there a rule of thumb for the size fuse, ie 10 amp bulb takes a minimum of ? amp fuse?

Edited by - on

MikaDayputs
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 03:53:38

A short anywhere will cause a fuse to blow, regardless of whether it's a bad switch or something else. Increasing the rating of the fuse is no good either - a short will cause any value of fuse to blow. You say you installed a new stainless 4-prong plug. I installed one on my Cat 25 and had a horrible time trying to keep the wires from shorting (*very tight* connections on the plug). So you may want to recheck the connections on this plug. To test for a short, you could remove all light bulbs, remove power to this circuit, then test for shorts. BTW If your lamps are incandescent, the + - wiring shouldn't matter, though I would still make the proper connections; if the lamps are LED's and you miswire the connections, the LED won't light at all. Also known as reverse biasing. Good luck!

Edited by - on

redviking
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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 07:19:29

Check to fixture itself. Might have a defect that happens after it gets hot.

Sten

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tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2013 : 11:43:01

Another update: still blows.

Mike, thanks for the info. I have checked and rechecked everything. With mast plug open, I get a lite on my volt tester when the switch is on, no lite when the switch is off. Regarding a bad switch, I understand the lite wouldn't go on or wouldn't go off, but how can it short and blow fuse since it is only on the + side of the circuit? What can it ground to?
I dissassembled both sides of the mast plug, reinserted the wires TO MAKE SURE there was no shorting.

Also Mike, your suggestion: after removing the 1 lightbulb and power to this circuit, how do I then test for a short? Ie: clip cont. tester to neg bus, then touch probe to...? I understand continuity but have trouble deciding exactly where to connect it. I have tested cont. from green wire (steamer) to the mast and there is none.

By the way, the blow is instantaneous, not heat buildup. The lamp is incandescent. the 12 volt bible mentions fuse blowing but then doesn't offer much by way of finding the culprit.

Thanks all,

Dave

Edited by - on

tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/03/2013 : 11:46:11

OH, just reread my post. When I tested the green wire (steamer)at the deck side of the mast connector/plug with volt lite, I had 15 amp fuse in, switch on. Volt lamp lites, fuse doesn't blow.

I have checked green wire cont. from mast side of connector, through fixture to neg terminal and find good continuity. Seems like the only thing it could be is the switch but I don't get how that can be or how to test for it.

Edited by - tweeet65 on 06/03/2013 11:53:08

MikaDayputs
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2013 : 03:52:11

Is it possible the switch is mis-wired so that when you energize the circuit it not only powers the light, but also sends the 12V to ground?

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3473 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2013 : 09:03:18

Just a possibility - Check the wire side of the switch panel to see if any wires or terminals off the switch connectors are touching weach other. If using the old switch panel, sometimes the wiring and terminals back there are somethign to behold.

Edited by - on

tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2013 : 12:26:21

Hey you guys, thanks so much for your assistance on this dilema. Since I am not anticipating moving alot after dark I am about ready to just skip it; deck light side of the Hella works fine. It jest really pisses me of that I can't solve this prob.

Still not solved, here's what I have done since the last eppisode:
1. With fuse out, tested continuity from the switch side of fuse to the far side of the switch; light on when the switch is closed, light off when I throw the switch. Switch is fine. I then repeated with a good fuse in, good result.
2. There are no loose or worn wires on the panel or that I can find between switch and lite,no + wires are misswired into - ones.
3. There was no gnd wire from the panel though I saw a stud with nut and washer so I ran a gnd to the neg bus from the panel, in case.

Again, when I hooked my volt light up to the deck side of the mast connector (green wire and black), with a good fuse in and turned the switch to on, my volt light lites (and fuse doesn't blow). I haven't used the meter to actually measure ohms, just continuity. This weekend I will go through the whole exercise again, then F*&^ it.

Tis quite possible that some of these tests are at fault as I am a little unsure of exactly where to attach cont. probes but I am learning!

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2013 : 13:49:02

With all the lamps in place and the switches off, test for 'continuity' (shorts) between the + and -ve terminals of the circuits

Paul

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2013 : 04:09:07

Dave...I haven't been following your thread (it's a very hectic time of year) so take my suggestions accordingly. You note above, however, that you consider green as a positive lead. It's possible but would be very surprising. Check the Manuals link (on left on the forum page) to see factory wiring for your year boat, but do not assume that the colors of the mast wiring harness will pair with the wiring between the switch and the deck connector. I would begin by assuming that the green wire in the mast was the common ground for the three lights (anchor, steaming, deck) and thus should ultimately be connected to the largest diameter pin in the through deck connector. Before hardwiring anything, however, I'd do a systematic test to verify this assumption and identify the remaining leads. A short length of wire with or without a couple small alligator clips will make this a simple book keeping task. If you can see the wires to the female side of the deck connector then turn all mast light switches on, pick a colored wire leading to the deck and systematically test the mast harness wires to identify which light lights up (a tad more complicated if bulbs and fixtures are not functioning). Keep notes and when each wire is identified then make your connections to the male end of the deck connector. Before calling it done, be sure to clean both the female and male connectors using fine sandpaper and then apply dielectric silicon to keep moisture out of the connectors. I wrap my connector with self adhesive tape to further keep out the elements. Depending upon your environment and whether you step the mast in the off season, this should keep things working a few years before you have to clean the terminals again.

Edited by - glivs on 06/07/2013 04:11:25

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5408 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2013 : 21:22:29

Testing for shorts in incandescent lamp fixtures is generally problematic. Incandescent bulbs behave badly with ohmmeters because they have next to no resistance (measure about zero ohms when not lit). When however a 25W bulb has 12.5v running through it it takes 2 Amps, so Ohm's law would say that the operating (lit) bulb exhibits 6 ohms. E=IR. but you'd measure a short circuit (< 1 Ohm) using a Digital Multi Meter on the 10 Ohm setting.

Unfortunately, you'll have to remove the bow or steaming light bulb from the fixture to look for a short. If you remove the steaming light bulb and check the resistance between the correct pins on the mast plug, you'll either get infinite ohms, "---" on the display (an open circuit) which would tell you your wiring and socket are good, or you would read 0.00 ohms, which tells you you have a short. You could have swapped +&- on the receptacle or miswired using color codes.

Another thing is to check the socket. I have an AquaLight receptacle that comes with plastic insulators for the mounting bolts. If you fail to use the plastic insulators, the +&- electrodes both touch the aluminum mast and will present a 100% short circuit through the bolts and shorted electrodes. This is an easy fix - just find the insulators and install them correctly.

If you remove the mast plug from the deck plug and you're still blowing fuses when switching on the bow light, then the matter is the wiring between the panel and the deck plug.
That's all I have. Happy hunting.

Edited by - on

tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 14:22:12

SOLVED. Ok everyone, thanks for all of your suggestions and help. Turns out it was the brand new stainless mast connector. After checking both male and female sides and rechecking to make sure there were no bare wires, etc, I finally just wired around the connector and voila!

I have inspected the insides and the outsides and I can find no place where wires are not totally enlcosed and unable to touch, so I don't know what is wrong with the connector.

Any way, lights working now, thanks again.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 15:03:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tweeet65
 SOLVED. Ok everyone, thanks for all of your suggestions and help. Turns out it was the brand new stainless mast connector. After checking both male and female sides and rechecking to make sure there were no bare wires, etc, I finally just wired around the connector and voila!

I have inspected the insides and the outsides and I can find no place where wires are not totally enlcosed and unable to touch, so I don't know what is wrong with the connector.

Any way, lights working now, thanks again.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
glad you were able to find the issue. Check again if the grounding leg of the connector is installed to ground? That pin does connect to the outer jacket.

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 19:52:18

Part of the job of the deck connector is to waterproof the hole where the wire passes from within the cabin to outside. When you removed the connector, how did you waterproof and seal the hole?

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/12/2013 : 09:02:47

I haven't read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been suggested...

Get a pair of jumper wires and a spare light bulb. Test the bulb at teh base of the mast. If no irregularities, you know the issue is in th emast. If anything weird happens, the issue is in the cabin wiring. (screw through a wire?)

Use a 9-volt flashlight battery, the big ones, and the jumper wires to connect to the mast wiring. See if things light up ok. If nothing weird happens, the issue is in the deck-to-mast connector.

If something weird happens, replace the bulb in the fixture, try again.

Next, disconnect the fixture from the mast. Put the wire leads directly to the bulb at the fixture end. If nothing weird happens, the issue is in the fixture.

Disconnect the fixture from the mast, try the leads directly on the fixture.

If you still haven't narrowed the issue down to a single component, I am at a loss.

Edited by - on

tweeet65
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2013 : 12:05:04

MK: I did notice the set screw that locks the plastic plug into the jacket contacts the ground pin. That made sense because I had continuity between the ground pin and the body of the connector. The ground pin is then directly connected to my neg bus. I still do not understand why the thing was shorting. I made sure that all 8 wires were well into their holes, set screws tight and no wiring showing. There are no breaks in the plastic lugs, nowhere can I see what would cause a short.

BR: haven't figured that out yet. I would like to use the damn connector, but will improvise something. Tiny umbrella? Large blob of flexible cauk/seal?

Chris: great suggestions. Through my fumbling I managed to do most of what you suggested.

Edited by - tweeet65 on 06/12/2013 12:07:03

Voyager
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Response Posted - 06/15/2013 : 05:16:44

You can't go without a deck connector - the umbrella might work…
Question is: which side of the plug is shorting? The deck side or the mast side? I believe the SS cover of the mast side plug may be causing the short.
If you unplug the connector and there's no short, then you know it's the mast side plug. If you remove the mast side plug cover and only plug in the working part without the cover, does it still short?
If it turns out to be the metallic cover shorting the steaming light terminal to ground, then either tape over the terminals before you put the cover on or get some shrink tubing (Radio Shack) and cover the terminals.
Or you could just buy a replacement connector.

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Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 06/15/2013 : 07:48:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You can't go without a deck connector<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually you can. I got tired of fighting the corrosion and tiny connections for the wires and replaced my thru-deck connectors with thru-deck cable outlets. The cables pass through the deck and the actual connections are made inside the head area with simple bayonet connectors. When dropping the mast you disconnect the cable inside and pass the cable back up through the outlet. No more wet and corroded connections to deal with.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/15/2013 : 13:05:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You can't go without a deck connector<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually you can. I got tired of fighting the corrosion and tiny connections for the wires and replaced my thru-deck connectors with thru-deck cable outlets. The cables pass through the deck and the actual connections are made inside the head area with simple bayonet connectors. When dropping the mast you disconnect the cable inside and pass the cable back up through the outlet. No more wet and corroded connections to deal with.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is what I've been thinking about doing also. I was going to use one of these -->> [url="http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://content.westmarine.com/images/catalog/large/540740.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product2_11151_10001_17501_-1____ProductDisplayErrorView&h=500&w=500&sz=47&tbnid=BpOfMyEhQuL7YM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=90&zoom=1&usg=__ie95IgxSpUrB7yRHkxEyufmmeY4=&docid=w3_TsPepVQ6zaM&sa=X&ei=Yce8UcTfHo7Y9AT2rIGgAg&ved=0CIwBEPUBMAc&dur=628"]Thru-Deck Fitting[/url] but your's looks smaller.

The other thing I thought about doing is just making up a harness to run from in the cabin to the connector on the mast wiring. I would just run the harness out the companionway on top of the deck and connect it to the mast side wiring when I needed it.

Your way does the same thing but in a more elegant manner. Nice job!

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 06/18/2013 : 09:54:55

I have used the BLUE SEA SYSTEMS "CableClam" Waterproof Through-Deck Fittings

for 15 years or better. You can look them up on the West Marine site

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 06/19/2013 : 11:55:02

For what its worth, Now that you have cornred the problem, As An old telephone repairman, I would replace the fuse with a small test bulb. If it lit you have a short. check all the possibilities and when the short is removed the bulb will go out.

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