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JPS109
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 05/29/2013 : 07:33:26

My 22 year-old Yamaha 9.9 is becoming unreliable. It doesn't hold engine speed, stalling, speeding up. Is Tohatsu a suitable replacement at $2,200 or should I go for another Yamaha for $2,750. Anybody want to buy a used Yamaha?

Jim
'87 Catalina 25 #5574
Blown Away
Monmouth Beach, NJ

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 07:42:23

The two year old Tohatsu/Nissan 9.8 on Lutra is working very well. Get the extra-long shaft (25") because it also comes with a 4 blade high thrust prop.

On the other hand I like the huge prop on the Yamaha's.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 08:38:51

When I was buying (and got a Honda--Tohatsu wasn't around here yet), I eliminated the Yamaha because the high-thrust, electric start model didn't have a pull-starter. If you ever had to pull-start, you had to remove the cowling and the flywheel cover (with a wrench). I don't know about the current models... The Tohatsu (aka Nissan) is substantially lighter.

Edited by - on

sailboat
Navigator

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Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 09:28:39

I don't know about the reliability of the 9.9 Tohatsu but I have a 14 year old 5hp Tohatsu for my dinghy and it is a terrific little motor.

"Chariots of Fire"
1980 Cat-25 SK/SR

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panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 09:51:46

There is nothing you can do to the motor. I have a 29 year old Honda and it runs fine. Had it serviced maybe four years ago and still running great.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 10:23:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 . . . I eliminated the Yamaha because the high-thrust, electric start model didn't have a pull-starter. If you ever had to pull-start, you had to remove the cowling and the flywheel cover (with a wrench). . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's because they are so reliable they don't need a stinkn' starter rope - HAH! This is why we're going electric in 2013.

Jim, I wonder how much of your problem is related to ethanol. My Yamaha outboard and Honda lawnmower have lower performance since ethanol was introduced.

Edited by - OJ on 05/29/2013 10:30:20

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 10:57:26

I've run white gas all my life and still running a 1974 Johnson as well as the 84 Johnson that came with the boat.

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Tim M
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Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 13:03:58

Here's a vote for the Tohatsu 9.8 Ultra long shaft with electric start as the perfect motor for our boats - at least for the serious cruisers. I've put 145 hours on it since I bought it new last year - motoring in all kinds of conditions - and couldn't be happier. It has more power, better low rpm operation and much more dependability than the 26 year old Honda 10hp that it replaced - although I still sold it on CL for $700. Recently we were in a bit of a nasty spot where we unexpectedly encountered 5-6' seas and 20-25 kts wind on the nose - being forced by wind, tide and waves toward a rocky shore - and motored through it for over 2hrs. for a real test. The motor never swamped or came out of the water in spite of a lot of bucking and crashing and even taking a wave over the side. We would have been SOL with the old Honda - I had swamped it a couple times and it would often start to cavitate in just a good chop. I learned about the longevity, dependability and serviceability of Tohatsu through the research I did with repairmen and the outboard forums. Also that they sell the engines to Johnson, Evenrude, Mercury, Nissan and the base mill to Honda. The only changes I've made are: 1) a new higher temp thermostat they just came out with because ambient water temp here in Northern Puget Sound is 46 degrees and the main problem for engine longevity is not running hot enough, and 2) I changed to the highest pitch 4-blade prop available for it so I can run at 6+knts/hr @ 5000rpm for hours at a time when I want to and often do. The newer Yamahas have a high tech choke that often becomes problematic after a few years but they also have a reputation for good longevity. The only drawback on the Tohatsu is no oil filter - so use the best oil you can and change it often.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 16:59:27

I am a little queasy over a review that compares a 26 yr old Honda to a new Tohatsu. I mean if the new outboard did not surpass the latters performance, then that would not say much for Tohatsu. I gues the point made is that there are a number of individuals that have the Tohatsu and are happy with it after many hours of use. So, that is a pretty good endorsement.

I bought a new 9.9 Honda beginning of 2006 and it has run fine as well and that's year-round. It has an electronic choke, no adjustments needed and has never been an issue. I really do not need the high charging rate which I believe at 12 amps exceeds most other outboards of it's hp but it is another benefit. In my area, I run across the USCG and on occasion, I have asked how they like there Hondas. They have only great things to say about them. granted, their Hondas are a wee bit larger than mine but you know, if the USCG is happy with them, chances are most others will be happy with them as well.

On one hand, you have comparisons to make between outboard weight/handling ease, overall cost & convenience, convenience of getting the outboard serviced (but may never need it if you do a lot yourself and have no warranty issues) and the recommendations you receive for one vs another outboard...and then one factor that usually figures high on my list is the experience I had with a mfr and if it was stellar, then it may outweigh my thoughts of switching to another mfr. You have had a Yamaha for 22 years and if most of those years it ran flawlessly then that would be fantastic and weigh in it's favor for getting another as long as others currently recommend it but then you have to factor in it's heavier weight compared to the Tohatsu and it's higher cost ...Does your past experience and what you can find out about the current models make you a loyal customer....or is it time to jump ship !

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/29/2013 17:03:18

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 17:38:11

I recently had the same problems with my Johnson 2-stroke outboard. Turned out to be related to ethanol in the gas and the gas being old.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2013 : 21:23:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...In my area, I run across the USCG and on occasion, I have asked how they like there Hondas. They have only great things to say about them. granted, their Hondas are a wee bit larger than mine...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and the same as mine (the 225 V6 adapted from the Honda Pilot and other models). A mechanic here told me the USCG beats the crap out of them, and they just don't break. (He maintains theirs.) So I bit.

For my C-25, I bought a 2002 Honda 8--an amazing little engine while it was mine. I'm intimately familiar with a Honda lawn tractor, which is head-and-shoulders above everything else I've seen. My Honda 2 dinghy kicker seems to be bullet-proof. Honda doesn't have the biggest or the least expensive outboards, but what they have seem to be first-class. Clearly other outboard builders--Yamaha on the big side and Tohatsu on the small side--are catching up, but I read somewhere that Honda makes more internal combustion engines than all other companies in the world combined. Although theirs are generally neither cheapest nor lightest (except the 2, which is lightest).

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 03:27:50

Dave - Agree !

I recall back in 1980 when I bought a new ODay 23, I went with an Evinrude 7.5hp (2 stroke back in those days and Evinrude was making the small outboards back then) but Honda was the first out there selling the 4 strokes. I was not ready to go for the Honda back then but my introduction to Honda was buying a a new '78 Civic and so I was on the learning curve. Through the years, I became a big Honda fan with car after car going with Hondas. Even right now I have a '97 Del Sol and a '99 Odyssey but that really has no comparison to the marine division except it is under the same umbrella company. The gist of what I am saying is that I am one that will give considerable weight toward the past long experiences with reliable service from a mfr. On the other hand, if I feel that I have been stiffed/received unreliable service, well then that would probably nix any future purchase since I would tilt the scales against the mfr. But when I read about those that have such long service from a mfr and then seem to knock them when they are in their waning years, I just hope they don't feel the same way to their elders in the household. Perhaps someone knows if outboard mfrs, such as Honda, going back say 25 years if they always sold extra long shaft outboards but when I hear about a comparison regarding one outboard that cavitates and a new extra long shaft outboard that doesn't, my gut tells me the older outboard was not a similar extra long shaft model since cavitation has not to do with reliability but how far the vent plate is below the waterline and so one more reason not to knock the old outboard at least without a reasonable explanation. I am not bashing anyone just seeking a level playing field and now that I am getting in my elder years myself, I guess I get sensitive a bit when comparing reliable sevice thru many years with brand new. Heck.....I love my Honda cars...I don't have any qualms saying that even though i also have a 2009 MINI Cooper Clubman and a 2014 Porsche cayman that will beat the pants off my Hondas. My thought is that my Hondas will probably stand out as more reliable over the long term compared to my newer cars and also consider that my Hondas have the reliability over the long term already in the bank whereas my newer models only time will tell and so you have to go by faith only at this point with them only having 4 years and the other with 1 month in the bank in comparison. But I will admit the Hondas are no way in the league of my Cayman.

But the Tohatsu is less expensive, far less weight meaning easier handling and those that have them seem to be happy with them. If there are no other factors to consider, well then it seems the decision is easy....then again, the Yamahas, Hondas and other mfrs have their supporters as well...so if some of the features or past reliable service weighs in on the decision...then a decision becomes a harder one to make.

Further off topic:

Dave - On a side note regarding your comment that Honda may make more internal combustion engines than other mfrs, I do not know if that is true. It may very well be. But recommend go to the library and see if they have the book: Autobiography of Honda. I read that many years ago. Mr. Honda was primarily an engine maker. Having made motorcycles for many years, he then joined up with a marketing exec and went into making the Honda cars, etc. There is an interesting chapter on a contract they signed early on when they were not happy with the quality windshields/glass coming out of PPG in the USA and so the contract with Hitachi, their main glass supplier, had a section having to do with responsibility to instruct/manage improvements in the quality control of the PPG products. It was considered in the industry one of the first contracts of it's kind to help improve the quality of a competitor - In this case of glass coming from a glass competitior !

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/30/2013 03:54:24

Tim M
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 11:24:41

Larry, try a little ginger ale - it might help with the "quease". Someone asked if the Tohatsu was a suitable replacement and I was saying that from my almost 50 year experience owning boats and motors and using them, I have found it to be the ideal replacement engine for our boats. I am not so ignorant as to think a new extra-long shaft 10hp with high thrust prop wouldn't out-perform a 26yo long shaft -actually only 8hp - motor designed to run on fuel no longer available and never had a high thrust prop available for it. THAT'S WHY I BOUGHT IT ! If you want comparitive reviews let me give you a few. The fellow two slips down has a 3yo Honda 9.9 and as he tells me, because of the design of the bottom end, every time after use and flush when he tilted the motor up it scooped up salt water and it collected in a void in the bottome end and corroded things to where it needed a major rebuild. He lost six weeks of sailing in our short season as he waited for parts that were not available anywhere in the USA. Many and most of the Tohatsu parts are identical to Nissan, Mercury, Johnson/Evinrude and are online from many sources. A boat-service freind of mine who does outboard repair has 3 Yamahas all under 5yso at his shop right now that he's avoiding fixing because he knows the owners are going to throw a fit when they get the bill for the parts for the choke/carb work they all need. A small personal example that is typical of all of the parts: The fuel filter for the Honda from the local dealer was $28 with tax 2 years ago. The exact same filter - with Tohatsu on the package - is $8.36 delivered to my house in two days. I'm sure beccause Honda makes more engines than anyone else that means theirs is better, LOL (really hard). I could keep going on with examples - how much space do you want me to fill up here? All that being said, I have many freinds who are very happy with their Honda 9.9. Also many people have been convinced and religiously believe that spending twice as much money gives them twice as much security. I am not one. I have a 2hp Honda for the dinghy becuase it is the lightest and most reliable small motor, but after only 3 years many fasteners and parts are badly corroding in spite of spraying with Boeshield regularly. It will give you nasty bruises if you don't keep your steadying hand clear of the recoiling start rope as it backfires several times - every time - before it starts. Of course the 'Coasties' love their souped up Hondas. They get to run the pee out of them and never give a thought to the huge over-priced maintenance costs of the constant attention, early re-builds and the accelerated PM schedule they are on because of what they are used for. Any motor would do great with that kind of attention. I too owned a '79 Civic and drive a newer one today but that has nothing remotely to do with what is currently the best designed motor available for our boats. Long-winded explainations/justifications as to why someone likes to spend twice as much money are interesting but not necessary. Just go ahead and spend it and be happy. If someone giving advise based on their life of sailing experience to a fellow sailor asking a question makes you ill, maybe you should look to changing your diet.
Cheers.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 14:51:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...Even right now I have a '97 Del Sol and a '99 Odyssey but that really has no comparison to the marine division except it is under the same umbrella company...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Actually, the engine on my $+!nkp*+ is the 3.5 liter V6 in your Odyssey. Mine is modified for a dry sump lubrication system so the block can be tipped up 90 degrees, and has VTEC (which the Odyssey might not have had in '99).

I tended to believe the "number of internal combustion engines" claim, based on the variety of power equipment Honda builds and sells all over the world... I've never seen one that's a 2-cycle. [/hyjack]

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2013 : 15:04:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tim M
 ...Of course the 'Coasties' love their souped up Hondas. They get to run the pee out of them and never give a thought to the huge over-priced maintenance costs of the constant attention, early re-builds and the accelerated PM schedule they are on because of what they are used for.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">From conversations, I don't think the mechanic here (servicing the USCG Academy and Station New London) would support those contentions.

Now, we've said our pieces about Honda. Peace.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 04:23:35

Tim,

I expected I would get bashed. You did not disappoint. But when I see a comparison to a 25 yr old outboard and then a comment regarding cavitation that has nothing to do with the original poster's concern regarding reliability of outboards, you invite a retort.

I stand by my comments which by the way, have no negatives expressed regarding competitive outboards and certainly did not recommend buying a more expensive outboard because that means they are better. The thing is that most individuals on this forum of had praise for their outboards. If there were overall negatives toward one mfr vs another, well then I would agree to stay away. I have not seen that on this Forum regarding outboards. In regards to sailmakers, that is another story - There have been one or two mfrs that many have agreed that one would best to stay away.

I listed what I believe are factors most should consider when buying an outboard. Not all may consider these factors important. Maybe there are addl factors to also consider. Anyway, I would think these are really obvious: 1) Specific features of the outboard which may make a difference in the decision making, 2) Cost comparisons, 3) Ease of handling which in most cases has to do with how heavy it is, 4) Serviceability/warranty service by locals - To some this is more important than to others especially for those that do not maintain outboards themselves. Many locals will service all outboards but some specialize only on a few outboards vs all, 5) Recommendations based on long term experience by others, 6) Own short/long term experience with a mfrs outboard.

This last factor, oftentimes weighs heavily in my decisions as to what I buy, meaning that if I had bad experiences with a mfr, then that would definitely tip the scales toward considering going with another mfr. I do not reward poor performance but I will give considerable weight in my decisons toward long term excellent performance unless a mfr has changed parent ownership and reliability went negative. When we start to get to consider performance of an outboard in it's waning years and I would consider an outboard over 20 years old in that category, I would probably not focus (in my new outboard decision making) on it's performance in it's waning years if I had overall exceelent service from it thru it's overall lifetime. Comparing to cars, I agree is apples to oranges but I mentioned it only as an example of how I factor in my own past experiences in the decision making process. But past experience is only one factor and so that is why my more recent car purchases did not as heavily factor in reliability vs features (without going into that here).

Based on the above, it seems logical to consider another Yamaha, if the 22 years of service were mostly good performance years and if they were, then it comes down to how important an individual weighs his own outboard performance experience compared to what is available in today's market and how important the above factors are in the overall decision making. That's why I indicated the Tahatsu should be considered because it scores high in regards to cost comparisons, weight/handling and recommendations by others. Except for providing my own experiences in explaining how I factor in long term reliability, I never did mention to consider buying any other mfrs outboard other than the two mentioned above.

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/31/2013 04:27:32

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 05:31:06

I imagine this engine would run if I got it serviced. I think the cork in the carb rots out. Wish other things I've bought would last as well..

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 05:55:25

It is interesting what the commercial fishermen are using at different times. Lately all I've seen at Apalachicola are the Mercs. They usta be horrible engines, but now they seem to be everywhere out there running well. I saw some yamehaws also...

Edited by - redeye on 05/31/2013 05:58:27

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 06:18:19

Looks like that guy is just gonna go around in circles.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/31/2013 : 08:00:25

I guess that's how they find the fish...

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JPS109
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 06/17/2013 : 09:04:57

Thanks to all for your comments and recommendations. I bought the Tohatsu 9.8 long shaft, used it for about 10 minutes and returned it. It did not move the boat sufficiently, especially in reverse. I replaced it with the extra long shaft. While I'm happy with it, I found that the materials are not as robust as my old Yamaha. I suspect that most new motors are built with lighter and cheaper parts. I didn't look at comparable Yamahas or Hondas, but I did compare prices. They were about $1,000 over the Tohatsu.

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AkaBud
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/17/2013 : 14:56:16

The difference is probably that the extra long shaft motor has a higher thrust prop.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2013 : 21:37:09

The Tohatsu is correspondingly around 20 lbs. lighter than the Hondas and Yamahas. I don't think it was around when I bought my Honda, but I wasn't that worried about weight--I got a yard guy to bring a forklift over to help me remove my motor in the fall, and mount it in the spring. (Both the outboard and I went up and down on the lift.)

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/18/2013 : 03:10:29

I know that the Honda extra long shaft (XLS), high thrust prop configuration, also has a thicker shaft. When I changed out my pump impeller, the marina initially provided me with the standard pump impeller which no way fit on the shaft. After bringing it back, for some reason, they had a hard time checking their database for the right impeller. They wound up going back to the box that the impeller came out of and looked adjacent to it and there was another box on the shelf with a larger diameter impeller, cross referencing the number of the larger diameter impeller in their database, confirmed it was for the XLS configuration. That one slipped on the shaft fine.

Off topic - Dave, you mentioned having a forklift/marina guys help remove the outboard. True - it is quite heavy. But I know that one drawback, at least for me going sailing, is that my strength has probably suffered thru the years and not just because I am getting older...though probably a contributor. I have had no issues removing the outboard by myself but the last time was many years ago since I am able to accomplish all mtn one way or another with the outboard on the transom and have not had a reson to remove it. But thru the years, I am sure that my strength to remove the outboard has dwindled because I wind up going sailing oftentimes or doing mtn and as a result my biking and frequency going to the fitness center has suffered. Between work, sailing/fiddling with the boat and etc other things, I have gotten out of my frequent routine of working out. Not sure how many out there have had same issue or find they do have the time to fit all in.

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/18/2013 03:14:35

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