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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Greetings! A few questions!

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splastiko
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/27/2013 : 13:28:26

Hello everyone! I've been reading a lot of topics on the various boards, and decided to register and ask a few questions.

I'm currently in my first year of sailing at the ripe old age of 26. I've been sailing and racing a mid 60s Flying Scot. Learning a lot, and absolutely loving every minute of it. I've grown up on the water, entirely around powerboats, with an urge to learn this mysterious sailing thing! Finally decided it was time and joined our local club, sailed a few times, and bought a boat.

Now I am looking to move up. My wife enjoys being on the boat, but the Flying Scot is a little to small for her comfort (plus she wants something with an engine

). I enjoy racing, but more importantly enjoy just being on the water. I'd like to start doing some local cruising, and a few overnights here and there. I will keep my Flying Scot for our weekly racing and local regattas. I guess my first question is, is a C25 or C250 right for me?

Some reasons I've told myself it could be the boat for me.
-outboard
-tiller
-shoal draft
-enclosed head
-price point

I live on a smaller lake, and draft is certainly an issue. I'd like to stay under 30 feet, and 25 seems to be a sweet spot. I think an outboard would serve me well, as I am currently a witness to a friend and his Bene First 42's serious diesel problems.

The admiral requires a head, which is understandable and I certainly want to make her comfy :).

Questions:
- Is the Swing Keel that much of an issue? (I'm in brackish/salt water).
- Is the 250 really less stable than the C25? (read that somewhere)
- Should I consider water ballast? (no idea)
- Overall layout opinions C25 styles vs 250's?
- Simple A/C setups ie. small Stand up ones from Sears or Home Depot(it gets really hot in the summer down here).

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but I'll complete this long rambling post now. I appreciate any, and all feedback you guys might have for me!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 15:48:16

Several questions come to mind:
Do you intend to keep it on a trailer or in a slip? If in a slip, how deep is the water under the slip?
A C-25 and trailer will easily weigh 6,000 lbs. or more, so an appropriate tow vehicle will be required. A shallow slip will require a swing or lifting keel. A fixed keel C-25 will draw 4 ft., a swing keel 2'8" keel up or 5' keel down. The C250 water ballast may be a good prospect if you plan to trailer a lot. It is much lighter on the trailer than a C-25.
The interiors in a C-25 and a C-250 are significantly different. The C-25 is more traditional with bulkheads separating the main cabin from the rest of the boat, while a C-250 is more open throughout.

Edited by - on

splastiko
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 17:10:52

Do you intend to keep it on a trailer or in a slip? If in a slip, how deep is the water under the slip?

- I will be keeping the boat at our club in a slip. The club has a launch on site, and I would like to be able to pull the boat whenever is necessary for repairs / bottom paint / etc. I will be able to leave the boat rigged while it is on the trailer.

A C-25 and trailer will easily weigh 6,000 lbs. or more, so an appropriate tow vehicle will be required.

- Trailer / Boat weight is no issue. Truck can handle plenty.

A shallow slip will require a swing or lifting keel. A fixed keel C-25 will draw 4 ft., a swing keel 2'8" keel up or 5' keel down.

- This is my concern, as we have recently dredged, I need to find out the exact draft requirements. I do know we have some 4' draft boats in our club though. The only issue is winter extreme low tides. In this situation, I can move to another dock most likely or just haul out and leave the boat rigged up.

The interiors in a C-25 and a C-250 are significantly different. The C-25 is more traditional with bulkheads separating the main cabin from the rest of the boat, while a C-250 is more open throughout.

- I like the more traditional layout, but I'd love to hear folks opinions on both, especially if they have experience in both.

PS I see you're on Percy Priest, I went to school not far from there - MTSU

Thanks for the questions. Hopefully this clears a few more things up!

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 18:10:17

No one has mentioned the C25 wing keel which would probably solve all of your problems with a draft of only 2' 10".

I've got one and really like the fact that I can go where any 21' power boat can go. I sail in Clear Lake just off of Galveston Bay which has water depths of 2' - 6'. Obviously I can't sail in 2' but have sailed in as little as 3' - 3-1/2 ' several times. It helps the bottom is very, very soft.

I've been thinking about getting a Flying Scot. Anybody in your area have one for sale at a reasonable price and in good condition?

Edited by - GaryB on 06/27/2013 18:15:41

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 19:22:09

The wing was my first thought. The swinger has benefits, but there is a limited amount of mandatory maintenance, and you can't, really shouldn't, sail a swinger with the keel up. I spend the summer in freshwater and winter in salt and have had no problems, but I'm conscientious about inspection, maintenance, and zincs. I strongly prefer the separation and privacy of the traditional interior, but you really need to spend some time aboard both layouts with your wife to see what fits you. Some people find the separate cabin layout a little cramped, but the C-25 pop-top adds a lot more volume and sense of space than the limited version of the 250 when you are anchored or docked. Some people never bother with the pop-top, but it takes less than 10 minutes raise and put the cover on and I love it. Both boats are available with the wing keel.

Edited by - on

splastiko
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 19:28:34

Thanks for the replies, I think the wing is great idea as well. I'll be on the look out. I've read the late 80s wing's are a nice set up.

Gary, I'm just down the road from you in Lake Charles, LA. We are actually rebuilding the Scot fleet here in LC. I saw one for sale in Beaumont not too long ago, needed a little work though. I'll keep an eye out!

The pop-top is crucial. I'm right around 6' and the wife is 5'3" ish I'd say. Pop Top with the dodger/wrap whatever you call it seems really nice to have.

Gary since you are close by, do you do anything a/c wise while at the dock or anchor?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 20:02:36

I faced this decision a few years ago. Here was my rationale for buying the 250 over the 25. I bought a boat to go sailing, not maintain one. I hate maintenance. I do it. I like to think I take good care of my boat but, I hate maintenance. The relative ages of the fleets took me to the 250. The last C25 to be built was in 1990 if memory serves me right. Just from age alone, more things will require repair or replacement sooner rather than later.

I also like the more traditional layout of the C25 but, the age factor won out. Speaking of layout, I think your wife will like the fully enclosed head on the 250 over the less private curtain separating the head from the rest of the boat on the C25.

As to draft, my wing keel draws 3 1/2 feet. I think that's less than the WB with the centerboard down. And, you can't really sail the boat with the centerboard up. If you're not going to trailer regularly, the biggest advantage of the wing keel version is that there is more headroom in it when compared to the water ballast. The ballast tank raises the floor a bit. I've forgotten how much exactly. If you plan to haul the boat around a lot, the water ballast would be my choice however. It weighs 1500 pounds less when the ballast tanks are empty.

I really don't think the 250 is less stable than the C25. I will say that, because it has a bit more freeboard, you have to account for the wind pushing the hull around a bit. That's just a learning curve thing. I've also think that I probably reef sooner than my C25 friends. That's not really a bad thing. I don't really like putting the rail in the water. I like sailing the boat at around 10 degrees of heel. I can push her to hull speed with a shortened main and a partially furled genny and still not feel like I'm about to fall off to leeward. I don't see any advantage of leaning it over any further since hull speed is about all I'm going to get anyway. You can get the rail wet with your Flying Scot.

Good luck with your search. It's kind of a nice problem to have.

Edited by - on

dreddick
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 20:14:13

...and there happens to be an '89 wing keel available in our swap meet

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26468

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2013 : 21:50:34

For two spouses overnighting, I think the C-250's open layout is great. And as said above, the head is a little more private than on the C-25. If people are less "intimate", the slightly greater privacy between the V-berth and the quarterberth of the C-25 might be an advantage.

For a C-25 in anything other than fresh water, I believe the wing keel is worth a large premium over the swing. There's a reason Catalina switched from one to the other (doing both for a few years, and then dropping the swing). The C-250 wing draws a little more than the C-25 wing, but if you're leaving the boat in the water most of the time (slip or mooring), it has significant advantages over the C-250 water ballast model--about 5" more headroom and fewer niggly issues involving that moving part. Besides, if you don't run aground some time, you're not really a member of the "club"!

But a huge amount comes down to the individual boat--especially with the C-25, which is long out of production. The newest one is 23 years old... but some sailors make their boats better than when they bought them, and some make them even better than new! (Some don't--thus, it's the "individual boat.") From what I've seen, besides being newer, C-250s have been "messed with" less by owners and may have less variance in condition, as you would expect with a newer model (and one with no exterior teak, for example).

Both boats are creditable performers--the C-250 probably has the advantage in lighter air, and the 25 in heavier air. But for performance, you have the Scott! You and your wife won't be looking for the extra .1 knot on your cruiser.

Good luck in your quest!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/28/2013 06:09:31

splastiko
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2013 : 06:41:38

Dreddick, that boat looks flawless. You seem to have really been a great owner. I wish I was closer to come take a look. Its a pretty good haul from the gulf coast

Stink, I'm pretty much open to either boat. I think I would enjoy both, and the way most people have explained, it truly comes down to the owner of the boat, and how well they maintained it.

John Russell, I have to agree with a lot of which you stated. I would like to get a boat I can sail more than constantly be fixing. This is another big reason for staying at 25' rather than 30 and up. I realize as boats get bigger, so does all the rigging, and costs.

I'm certainly not in any big hurry, and would like to find the one that fits my needs. Thanks for all the help, I'll keep you guys updated on my search.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2013 : 16:02:31

C25 is a better high wind boat, I sail on a windy lake and have never seen a C250 last more than a season on our lake. C25s can play in good wind if well maintained.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2013 : 17:27:52

I am the previous owner of a 1981 C25 swing and the current owner of a 1989 wing. The new deck (introduced in 1989) makes for a much drier interior. I have re-applied bottom paint, polished/waxed the hull and refinished the teak. Beyond that, all work has been elective - hardware modifications to make the boat more user friendly (yep, better than original.)

You would be well served to inspect a 1989 (or later) C25 before purchasing any other Catalina 25 model.

Edited by - OJ on 06/28/2013 17:46:33

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2013 : 18:15:49

The difference in interior height between the C-250 WK & WB is about 10" if I remember correctly. We looked at a couple of WB boats but one of our criteria was that we could stand up inside, and at 6'-2" that didn't quite happen with our WK, but Rita can definitely stand up and move around comfortably, on a WB even she at 5' would have been too tall (I think?). I on the other hand have to be more circumspect, and if I'm tired it's guaranteed I'm going to knock my head on the hatch because I forgot to duck. If we've got the hatch propped up, I can stand comfortably in the galley area.

While I've been on several C-25's, I've never actually sailed on one. However, knowing what I know now, if I were to buy another 25' boat it'd probably be a C-25 & not a C-250. Don't get me wrong, we like our boat, but there are aspects of it that we really don't like. Bear in mind we have a tall rig, which is frequently too much sail for the Puget Sound area. My San Juan 21 was definitely easier to single hand than my C-250, in fact I've only sailed it once by myself (and had a pretty good time doing so). The absolute biggest problem with our boat is slow speed maneuverability. I've learned to plan my approach back to our slip for slack tide, or an incoming tide to help nullify the effects of the current, but with such a high free board, the wind can have significant say in where the boat's going as well, and that's harder to plan for. Sometimes you have to just suck it up and go for it.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2013 : 18:52:23

Thanks Dave (it's always nice to get reinforcement that we made the right choice ... for us )

JD almost turns on a dime! We have been in line waiting for a vacant ramp with a dozen other boats, and JD would happily turn easily in the crowded channel!

Paul

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 12:11:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by splastiko
 ...Gary since you are close by, do you do anything a/c wise while at the dock or anchor?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yep! 6,500 Btu window air conditioner in the companionway with a plastic tarp around it.

I spent the night on the boat last night. It was around 98 outside when I got to the boat. It was probably 120+ in the interior when I first opened up the boat. With the a/c on it was probably down to 85 in 15-20 minutes and in the low to mid-70's within 40 minutes. At night it will easily get down to 63 or 64 if you want.

I sleep like a log on the boat in low humidity, cool air all night long. I just have to make sure I head home before it gets too hot!

Edited by - on

splastiko
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2013 : 13:45:57

Time to bump up this thread with a few more questions. So I've been searching here and there and trying to get some ideas. It seems as if most of the C25's I come across are are 85' and older. After many comments, most people say the 86 - 89 wing is the sweet spot.

I did find this one -- http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scatalina25317.html but has no mention of a trailer, what type of keel, and also does not have a head installed. I know its hard to tell, and maybe I don't want to be out of line, but looking at this boat how do you C25 guru's feel it stacks up.

Edit: found the YW listing. Its a swing keel. More pictures here http://bit.ly/1bp2A8s

Edited by - splastiko on 07/10/2013 13:58:04

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2013 : 14:40:30

In the YW listing, under dimensions, the ballast and displacement numbers (1,900 and 4,500 lbs)are for the fixed keel model. For the swing keel, the ballast is 1,500 lbs. and displacement is the same as in the upper part of the listing, 4,150 lbs. Looks like a good boat, Motor is new, cushions appear in good shape. Those are 2 of the most expensive upgrades that should be settled already.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2013 : 16:15:13

Looks like a very nice boat if the pictures are current. It would definitely be worth taking a drive to check it out.

There are a lot of C25's in the DFW area so if this one didn't work out you could probably find another and salvage the trip.

I made 4 or 5 different trips to DFW when I was looking for my boat. Looked at 8 or 10 boats total because there were none available in the Houston area. Ended up buying mine 30 miles from home when it popped up on this site late one night.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2013 : 19:25:46

If you're interested in a swinger, this one looks pretty good from here (1700 miles away), especially if the sails are decent. The sail inventory suggests some are newer than original.

I don't see whether it's a standard or tall rig... The tall is good for light-air venues and racing, while the standard is good for stronger breezes and cruising (since the boom is a foot higher). Over 10 knots of breeze, there's very little difference in speed, and the tall rig wants to be reefed earlier.

In the '85 (and from '83 on) you do get the cockpit fuel locker instead of a shelf inside the sail locker, which can send fumes or gasoline into the bilge. The biggest changes were the addition of the wing keel around 1987, and the 1989 lowering and flattening of the cabin sole made possible by the elimination of the swing keel.

I'll repeat my standard advice to make any offer contingent on a satisfactory professional survey, and then get one. You'll learn a lot, and you might discover why you should re-negotiate the price or even walk away.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/10/2013 19:29:02

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2013 : 05:36:50

I have a C-25 Standard Rig, Wing Keel, which works well for us. I kept it in a slip for the first couple of yeas but put it on the trailer a few of times to sail in other lakes. I have noticed that the wing keel will slide sideways a little more than a swinger in light air & slow speed. Also, it does not seem to point as well. I am mid boom sheeted and the bimini is well placed to stay in the shade most of the time. I am 5â€™ 10â€ and have good headroom to stand up under the bimini. With a tall rig the bimini is lower and I cannot stand up. I have been told that the C25 handles better than a 250, however, I have not sailed a 250. I solo sail a lot of the time and have all but the reefing lines run to the cockpit. Check Sailing Texas for boats. I check it occasionally and some times find a really good boat listed. We shopped for 11 months before I bought the boat I have now. It needed a lot of cosmetic TLC but was a good solid boat. I have rigged an A frame and can step the mast by myself and be on the water in an hour or less. No slip currently. This year I will leave it on the trailer, rigged ready to sail at a local lake, but will spend a lot of time at other lakes for a week or so at a time.

Edited by - on

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