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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

pintles and gudgeons

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dave andersen
1st Mate

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85 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/29/2014 : 10:41:42

Is there a fix for pintles that have been worn down and are rather
loose in the gudgeons. Some kind of sleeve?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2014 : 11:20:17

Dave, you may be able to find some Delrin or bronze sleeves at McClendon's (local hardware store chain in the Seattle area for those not around here). The one in Woodinville has a large assortment of sleeves that I've used for various projects (but not this specific one). It looks like the Woodinville one is the closest to Whidbey, so it's a bit of a hike for you.

You'd probably be better off replacing the pintles & gudgeons with new ones than trying to retrofit sleeves onto worn ones. I don't know which model boat you've got but on my C-250 it's not horribly difficult to get to them, I'm sure the C-25 guys will weigh in if that's what you've got. You should be able to get replacements at Catalina Direct.

A little blurb about your boat in your signature helps a lot when dealing with questions like this.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2014 : 12:15:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 ...A little blurb about your boat in your signature helps a lot when dealing with questions like this.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup--most hardware and rigging questions have somewhat different answers between C-25s, C-250s, and Capris, not to mention the variations in keels, rigs, and years. Correspondingly, I've been known to give answers for the wrong boats.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2014 : 12:18:31

If this is for a C25 there are two fixes. One is to replace the gudgeons with the newer/stronger with the sleeve model from CD. This will more than likely involve cutting an access hole in the transom to access the upper gudgeon nuts then filling the resulting hole with an inspection plate.these are them http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/301_83/gudgeon-12-retrofit-three-bolt-hole-c-22-c-22-sport-c-25cp-22-c-250.cfm
The second easy fix is to just get the bushing,Drill out your existing gudgeons so they fit. These are them http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/963_83/gudgeon-bushing-only.cfm I recommend the first fix. CD says that there is insufficient room to do the second fix but it looks like there would be plenty of metal left as in this photo. Like I said I recommend the first fix and that is what I did. Replace the pintles if they are worn too.

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2014 : 18:24:34

Another option - these are bulletproof:

http://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/category/1-Schaefer-J24-Style-Pintles-Gudgeons.html

A heads-up! Lining up new pintles and gudgeons was one of the most tedious tasks I have ever performed on any boat. As the transom is not perfectly straight or flat, we had to cut tapered shims in 1/4 degree increments until we got it right. Without a table saw with fine incremental adjustments I am not sure how I would have done it.

Edited by - OJ on 03/29/2014 18:27:49

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2014 : 03:20:58

On my Catalina 25 they were very loose and being new to the boat I did not know about Catalina Direct or this site so I machined some bushings to fit out of brass. Luckily I have the equipment in a shop to do that. Not sure the brass was the best choice of material. If you cannot find any you might have some machined.

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2014 : 06:52:34

The replacement parts from Catalina Direct are much more robust than the originals. For me it was a no brainer to replace them, especially since our original gudgeons were cracking.

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panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2014 : 08:21:48

I would go with the parts from CD. They are stronger and with through bolting you don't have to worry about them falling off.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2014 : 08:48:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 A heads-up! Lining up new pintles and gudgeons was one of the most tedious tasks I have ever performed on any boat. As the transom is not perfectly straight or flat, we had to cut tapered shims in 1/4 degree increments until we got it right...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When I bought my new balanced rudder from CD, I also got the beefed up gudgeons... I ended up returning them because their alignment was so difficult, due to the steel tubes welded into the holes. They have to be perfectly aligned to the pintles (not to themselves), in three dimensions. (I didn't have OJ's tenacity.) I reinstalled the original gudgeons, which are more than strong enough, particularly for a rudder that wants to float off, as the balanced fiberglass rudder does. Drilling them out and adding some plastic bushings would have made an improvement, but I was so pleased with the new rudder I wasn't worried about a tiny bit of pintle-slop.

The upper gudgeon can be removed and replaced without cutting an access port inside the transom... The bolts thread into a bronze plate that's epoxied inside the hull. That's not to say it isn't a good idea to drill out the holes in that plate and thru-bolt with washers and nuts--that's what requires the access port. I recommend thru-bolting at least for the lower gudgeon, which gets the most stress (and doesn't require a port). And if you upgrade to the beefed-up gudgeons, you'll probably need to be able to adjust their alignment, which means you'll probably need the port.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/30/2014 08:53:19

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2014 : 09:44:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The bolts thread into a bronze plate that's epoxied inside the hull. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dave, Not for all years, My boat had a bronze backing plate with nuts so I guess it depends on what Catalina felt like doing at the time. Obviously this is why CD sells the access port kit.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> They have to be perfectly aligned to the pintles (not to themselves), in three dimensions. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I know exactly what you are talking about here, This happened to me. I was replacing the pintles anyway so re-aligning them to the gudgeons wasn't that hard but it can be a potential problem for someone who is just going to replace the gudgeons with the newer ones with the barrel.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2014 : 13:50:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The bolts thread into a bronze plate that's epoxied inside the hull. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dave, Not for all years, My boat had a bronze backing plate with nuts so I guess it depends on what Catalina felt like doing at the time. Obviously this is why CD sells the access port kit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Indeed, our backing plate was threaded. In retrospect I wonder how Catalina positioned plates so exact that the gudgeons and pintles lined up.

My son and I are pretty pleased the end result. For the last 3 seasons the pins drop in place at launch and we remove them using the tips of our index finger and thumb during retrieval.

This is how far out of alignment our gudgeons were (installed by previous owner) the first time we checked them.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5396 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2014 : 15:31:54

Just an FYI - I've learned to retighten my gudgeon bolts about once a year since I've had Passage. In year 3 I was out on a daylong sail in some rocky waters and felt a funny wiggle in the tiller. After a quick check, I found one bolt loosely holding the bottom gudgeon in place. OMG! I almost lost it completely.
I dropped sails immediately. I tightened the first bolt finger tight, then found a long bolt and reinserted it. I dropped down under the quarterberth and put a nut on the second bolt. I got back underway and it held until I arrived at my destination. Afterwards I replaced all the bolts and put two nuts together as a locknut on each one. Could also use nylocks or locktite.
Since then I check the bolts every season.
As the rudder, pintles and gudgeons are always under stress from the motion of the waves, it's not surprising that they work themselves free. Pretty critical. Not a bad idea to carry a spare gudgeon.

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2014 : 09:31:21

I replaced both gudgeons a few years back . Maybe I lucked out but the job went quite well . I did cut the access hole and installed the new plate ... The only problem I ran into was the new upper gudgeon Bearing is longer than the original and it covers a small portion of the hole in the pintel where I place a cotter pin to keep the rudder from popping off. I just have used a smaller cotter pin.. The rudder is seated down on the gudgeon.

Frank Law
"ABOUT TIME"
1983 # 3519
SWK , SR

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2014 : 11:42:18

I was working on the boat today and took a photo of the backing plate with the lock nuts. When I replaced my Gudgeons, The plate itself was not held in by fiberglass but it was held there by the old calking. The plate is only about 1/8" thick so it can't have many threads cut into it. If you go to tighten the bolts I would be very careful, Its only soft brass. This might be the reason Catalina started putting lock nuts on.

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