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Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/18/2003 : 14:55:16

I have a question about the sails allowed to be used on the 250 at the regatta? Can I use my 155 drifter and 135 jib? or do I have to resort back to my original worn out 110?
Looking forward to possibly sailing over to Indiana!
Jack Schafer,2nd Wind

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2003 : 19:34:20

You raise an issue that should be discussed. One concern is that one of the association bylaws suggest that a goal of the association is to promote reasonableness of cost for this class of boats. To rigidly follow that vein, only stock sails should be allowed so that we don't run into wars of who can throw the most money. But, if rigidity prevails and I think it should...then the boats shouldn't be run one design as the water ballast has never been offered with more than a 110.

Note: The shrouds of the water ballast are not set up for use of a 150 or a 135 so as Mark Melchoir lamented a few years ago, the water ballast is forced to take a hit having to run a 110 against a wing with a 135 or 150.

This is a tough one...because there hasn't been enough boats out to run seperate classes, and heck, we don't really have a good feel yet for the compeditive differences between the wing and water ballast.

Regarding using your drifter/reacher... the sail is neither stock nor within the usual 150% limit. But, that is the sail that many of us have because Ullman Sails had to design the sail to work with the water ballast boats beam shrouds and it is cut with a high clew to sheet to the aft stanchion base.

If rigidity doesn't prevail and the two boats are run heads up and 150s are allowed on boats that weren't shipped with them (there were very few that were) ... then I think that tollerance then has to be given to the use of the 155% drifter as that is the necessary sail cut to fit to the water ballast boat design and the one so many of us have invested in.

It would be important to point out, that the use of a drifter while racing would be dependent upon winds remaining under the sails limit of 6-8 knots. If it had to be taken down during a race, the loss would likely exceed any gains.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2003 : 22:48:40

Arlyn - the class rules for the C25 (and I believe that they are the same for the C250) state a 155% max for a headsail.
I also agree that the divergence in equipment on the two versions of the C250 will present a problem. Quite frankly I think that some PHRF
allowance made for a smaller headsail than 155% would also present a problem. A boat designed to run best with a 110% jib (like the J-22) gets an advantage if given time because he doesn't have a 155%...and yet the 155% may be too much on that boat for the conditions, and it runs a 110% - for which it was designed - and still gets his allowance...quite a can of worms...<img src=icon_smile_8ball.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 13:18:42

Are you guys talking One Design here or PHRF???? I am confused,
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 15:28:16

Steve - the C25 is basically a "2-design", to wit a tall rig or a short rig. Easily accomodated either as PHRF or as 2 separate classes. The C250 doesn't easily seem to fit that, what with 2 keel configurations and apparently (although I am not totally familiar with the details) several different stock headsails. Didn't they also make a few tall rigs? Is it fair to run a WK with a 110% against a WB with a 135% - or any combination thereof - as one Class?? So, should the C25's run in 2 Classes and the C250 under PHRF? It's for the Officers to decide - and I don't envy them their task!
btw (and I am NOT suggesting this in any way, shape, size or form!!) the C22 Natl. Assoc. solve the problem by not letting their
C22 Mark ll's enter their Nationals. (And the C22 is further from a "One Design" designation than any other boat!)Sort of "cutting off your nose to spite your face"<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Jack Schafer
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 15:49:16

How about running the 250's as phrf? I would think that the different size of head sails would be easy to figure. The hulls are pretty much the same and also the mains.
Jack,2nd wind

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 18:24:22

I've never seen any C-250 Class Rules. Do they exist?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 21:11:01

"I've never seen any C-250 Class Rules. Do they exist?

These are from the C25/250 Constitution and Bylaws web page.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/bylaws.html#C250%20Design%20Class%20Rules

CATALINA 250 DESIGN CLASS RULES

A. GENERAL

1. All boats seeking recognition as a Catalina 250 Class Racing Sloop must be made from molds approved by the Catalina 25/250 National Association, herein to be known as the Association.

2. Any modification to the hull and/or deck of the Catalina 250 must be approved in writing by the Rules Committee of the Association unless specifically permitted herein.

3. Modifications to the interior of the boat may not decrease the structural integrity of the boat. Specifically, changes made for the purpose of weight distribution will not be allowed.

4. Due to design differences and production options, all C250 boats will race with handicap ratings according to Section F. Ratings.

B. RUDDER

1. Rudders shall be of fiberglass-foam-wood composition and from an approved mold. (Rudders manufactured for C-250s by Catalina Yachts prior to the publication of these rules are considered to be approved.) In the case where the rudders are obviously different from those now being manufactured, proof of origin may be required.

2. Changes to the rudder to affect weight distribution will not be allowed.

3. Beaching rudders will be allowed provided they comply with B-1.

4. Modification to gudgeons will be allowed for the purposes of balancing pressure on the helm.

C. KEEL

1. Keels may be either retractable (centerboard) or fixed. In either case, they shall be as supplied by the manufacturer. They shall remain unmodified in composition, size, and shape. Refinishing the surface of the keel shall not be considered a modification.

2. Centerboards may be retracted from the full down position at the discretion of the skipper. The cable may be removed or attached along the trailing edge of the board.

3. Fixed keels and centerboards may race together as one class. See Section F. Ratings.

D. MAST AND BOOM

1. The mast shall remain fixed when stepped. No adjustable steps will be allowed. No step may raise the base of the extrusion more than an inch above deck level.

2. The extrusion of the mast and its fittings shall adhere to the specifications of the manufacturer and changes in shape and weight shall not be allowed.

3. The boom extrusion must be of a standard shape and weight as specified by the manufacturer.

4. Whisker poles including end fittings may not exceed 16 feet 3 ¼ inches. Telescoping whisker poles may be used, providing they are banded in a manner as to appear as one 2" band at each joint when adjusted properly or two narrow bands when over-extended at each joint.

5. Spinnaker poles including end fittings may not exceed 10.5 feet.

6. Boom extensions disallowed.

E. SAILS

1. Sails allowed:

Spinnaker class: (6 sail limit)
1 Mainsail
3 Headsails (max 135%*)
2 Spinnakers

Non-Spinnaker class: (4 sail limit)
1 Mainsail
3 Headsails (max 135%*)

*Boats that were originally built and supplied with jib sails larger than 135% will be allowed with appropriate handicap ratings.

In any one regatta the same sails must be used to fill the requirements of this section, unless there are extenuating circumstances, in which case the measuring official may waive this requirement.

a. Spinnaker sails are authorized and may be used in the National Championship Regatta and all sanctioned Regattas as a separate spinnaker class. Only two measured spinnakers may be used in the same regatta.

2. Measurement of sails

a. General

(1) Sails shall be measured in a dry state laid on a flat surface with just enough tension to remove wrinkles across the line of measurement being taken.

(2) The term "sail" shall be taken to include the headboard, tabling, bolt and foot ropes (or tapes). It shall not include cringles which are totally outside of the sail.

(3) Windows may not have an area greater than 3 square feet (including telltale windows), in any one sail, nor may be closer than 6 inches to any edge.

(4) For the National Championship Regatta, that suit of sails which a competitor intends to use shall be submitted upon request prior to the start of the first official race, and marked by the Chief Measurer or his designated representative. The mark shall be a 6 inch tall representation of the class insignia placed on the starboard side of the sails in the vicinity of the tack grommet as determined by the measurer. Directly below the mark shall be written the location and date of the regatta.

b. Definitions

(1) Head - The head shall be taken as the highest point of the sail projected perpendicular to the luff or its extension.

(2) Clew - The clew shall be taken as the aftermost point of the sail projected to the foot or its extension.

c. Mainsails

(1) Luff - The length of the luff shall be taken as the distance between the uppermost point and the lowermost point of the leading edge of the sail. The dimension shall not exceed:
Tall Rig - 27.5'; Standard Rig - 24.5.

(2) Foot - The length of the foot shall be taken as the distance between the forwardmost and aftermost points of the lower edge of the sail. The dimension shall not exceed 11'.

(3) Battens - The mainsail shall have four battens with no maximum length restriction.

d. Headsails

(1) Luff - The luff shall normally be the distance between the lowest part of the sail on the luff rope or wire and the head. At the discretion of the measurer, if it appears that there has been liberty taken so as to take advantage of this rule in order to build a sail longer than would ordinarily be permitted under this rule, the point of measurement at the tack shall be taken as the point of intersection of the luff of the sail or the luff extended, and the foot of the sail or the foot extended, ignoring any round or hollow of the foot. Likewise the point of measurement of the head of the sail shall be taken as the point of intersection of the luff of the sail, or luff extended, and the leech of the sail extended ignoring any round or hollow of the leech. The dimension shall not exceed: Tall Rig - 32.5'; Standard Rig - 29.5'. The luff shall be attached to the forestay by either a head foil OR a minimum of four (4) hanks (or similar mechanisms) equally spaced along the luff between the tack and the head of the sail.

(2) Longest Perpendicular - The "LP" shall be measured on the perpendicular from the luff (outside edge) to the clew. The dimension shall not exceed 12.15'.

e. Spinnakers

(1) Luff - The length of the luffs shall be taken as the distance between the highest point of the sail and the foot measured around the edge of the luff. The dimension shall not exceed: Tall Rig - 32.025'; Standard Rig - 29.286'.

(2) Girth - The maximum shall be measured across the widest point of the sail between points equidistant from the head. The dimension shall not exceed 16.2'.

3. Fleet Measurer

Each fleet will, through normal procedures as set forth in fleet by-laws, select a fleet measurer. The name of the measurer will be sent to the Association. Upon measuring a set of sails and finding that they comply with rules set forth herein, the measurer will affix to the area near the tack of each sail measured: C-250, his initials, and three numbers indicating the month measured and the last two digits of the year measured. For example the numbers"4 - 00" indicate that the sails were measured in April of 2000.

F. RATINGS

1. All boats shall be rated according to the current area PHRF rating of the host fleet as available to them. Fixed keel and centerboard boats with tall and standard rigs will be rated accordingly.

2. Rating adjustments will be allowed as follows: Inboard engines, fixed prop +.1; and inboard engines, folding prop +.05. Adjustments for appropriate headsail size will be made.

G. STANDING RIGGING

1. The standing rigging must remain unmodified and attached unless otherwise specified herein.

2. The backstay may be split or a dual system may be used. A backstay adjusting mechanism may be incorporated.

3. Headfoils are allowed.

4. Open turnbuckles are allowed.

5. Headsail roller furling gear is allowed

H. RUNNING RIGGING

1. Unless otherwise specified or limited, running rigging will remain open to modification.

2. Travelers must remain "as produced" and will be limited so that the mainsheet attachment point may not be changed from the point which the factory installed traveler was delivered as a new boat.

3. Deck gear, unless otherwise specified or limited, will remain open to modification.

4. Instruments, unless otherwise specified or limited, will remain open to modification.

5. Internal halyards allowed.

I. REQUIRED SAFETY EQUIPMENT

General - Every yacht while racing shall have aboard the following:

1. An operable engine whose combined weight with associated fuel tank must weigh at least 40 pounds. Should this weight limitation not be met, then ballast must be added to meet the above weight requirement. Engine must be mounted and ready to use. No minimum horsepower requirement for the engine.

2. An anchor, chain, and line whose combined weight is at least 15 pounds. Should this weight limitation not be met, then ballast must be added to meet the requirement.

3. U.S.C.G. approved personal flotation devices for all persons aboard, plus one additional throwable flotation device.

4. Operable U.S.C.G approved lights.

5. A fire extinguisher.

6. A horn.

7. Such other equipment as is required by the agency having jurisdiction on the waters where the regatta is being held. The Race Committees shall indicate such in the race instructions.

J. ANTI-HIKING

General - While participating in Catalina 250 Class races no person while on board and while racing may position themselves in any manner which will extend their torso outside and beyond the vertical extension of the sheer other than temporarily.

1. While in a position to make sail changes, criteria stated in J above will not apply.

K. MEASUREMENT

1. The Association will issue to each fleet measurer forms for the measurement of yachts. The measurer will fill out the certificate in duplicate. One copy will be given to the owner of the yacht and one copy will be sent to the Association Rules Committee (Chief Measurer). Additional copies may be kept on file by the fleet. The Association shall issue a Measurement Certificate. The Catalina 25/250 National Sailing Association Measurement Certificate shall be binding upon all organizations conducting one-design races for the Catalina 250 Class. A yacht having been granted such certificate shall not be subject to protest on measurement unless reasonable grounds can be shown to give evidence of subsequent alteration.

2. Protests of measurements must be accompanied by a check in the amount of $15.00 made out to the Catalina 25/250 National Association. If the protest is disallowed the check will be forwarded to the Association, if it is allowed the check shall be returned to the protester.

3. The Association Championship Regatta race committee, under the direction of the Vice Commodore of the Association, may require measurement of any or all parts of a yacht participating in the regatta as a condition of participation or issuance of awards.

L. CHAMPIONSHIP REGATTA

1. Special regulations related to the organization and operation of the National Championship Regatta will be established by the Championship Regatta Race Committee (Vice Commodore, Chairman). These rules may relate to the conditions under which a yacht may enter and the equipment that she may use except that under no circumstances will equipment be permitted which is not allowable under the rules governing the class. These rules will be published in the race invitation or sailing instructions.

M. PARTICIPATION

1. Eligibility - Participation in Catalina 250 Class regattas in the capacity of skipper/helmsman shall be limited to owners of Catalina 250 Class sloops and their immediate families. You must be a member, in good standing, of the National Organization to sail in Catalina 250 class regattas.

2. Establishment of Ownership - Ownership is established by the presence of the name of the person in question on the Certificate of Registration of a Catalina 250 or, in the case of a charter, a Certificate of Registration of the charterer's Catalina 250.

3. Partnership - Partnerships are authorized in the Catalina 25/250 National Association.

a. Sharing the capacity of skipper (co-skipper) while participating in class races is authorized.

b. Those owners having partnerships in yachts entered in any Fleet, Regional, or National Regatta must be able to furnish race officials written proof of ownership upon request.

4. Amateur Sport - No person on board a Catalina 250 entering either the officially sanctioned National or Regional Regatta, either in the capacity of skipper or crew, shall be a professional yacht racing person. Specifically, any such person or persons on board who earn the principal part of their living as a maker of sails or builder or designer of sailing yachts shall cause the boat entered to be automatically disqualified from participation in the race.

Disqualification shall not require protest but remain in the judgment and at the discretion of either the National Racing Committee of second in charge, the local Race Committee. However, a professional yacht racing person may be present on board a racing Catalina 250 if that professional person is a full owner of a Catalina 250 and can show bona fide papers to prove this fact. Interpretation of the words "principal part of living" shall be left to the particular rules and/or racing committee in charge of the regatta. Whether ownership papers presented are "bona fide" shall be left also to the particular committee in charge.

N. HELMSMAN

1. The helmsman of the Catalina 250 shall be the skipper unless emergency or necessity requires that he give up the helm for a short period of time.

O. REVISION OF CLASS RULES

1. Ballots to revise these rules will be made available at the time of publication and voting will close by the date printed on the ballot. Results are to be published in the first issue of Mainsheet Magazine or Telltale newsletter following the balloting.

2. Only members in the Catalina 25/250 National Association are eligible to vote (only one vote per boat), balloting, etc., in any election.

3. Any interpretations of these Rules by the Rules Committee shall be published annually when the rules are published but the interpretation shall not be considered a part of the rules.

P. INTERPRETATION

Specifications, however complete, cannot anticipate every situation which may arise. If a point is not herein covered a ruling should be obtained from the Rules Committee. In interpreting these rules and specifications the Rules Committee shall consider the intent rather than the technical construction that might be derived from the wording. It shall bear in mind always the basic principle of the specifications, which is to maintain the Catalina 25/250 National Association as a design class.

(As Adopted by the Officers of the Catalina 25/250 National Association on June 4, 2002)

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2003 : 09:02:34

Aha! They were posted in the wrong place. The class racing rules should be posted on the Racing page, where the C-25 racing rules are posted, instead of on the Constitution & By-laws page.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 08:39:15

I've been out of town at a wedding since Friday. Thanks to Arlyn for bringing this thread to my attention.

As the Class rules read, Owners may not use a sail bigger than 135% unless it is an original 150% that cam with the boat. The burden of proof is on the owner and if sailed with (that means if they elect to put it on their boat, not if they elect to use it) they will be assessed a penalty as determined by the local PHRF rules. If PHRF rules do not dictate a penalty, the race committee shall assess one.

DW

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 11:56:27

Arlyn - you seem to be the C250's history expert <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Would you list the various rig/sail configurations that Catalina has produced so far?
After much thought, I'm beginning to think that Jack Schafer is correct - the C250's should race PHRF.
Next question is, what PHRF numbers do the C250 owners race with, with what sail/rig config and where? Do we have any racing on Lake Wawasee? Let's have some input please.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 14:01:59

The C250 original design was a center board water ballast and was offered with a 110 headsail only. The first 230 and all subsequent center boarders were produced with this config.

The wing keel was introduced some time in mid '96 after hull number 230 or so and offered with a choice of 110, 135, 150 headsail and either a standart or tall rig.

Not many of the tall rigs were built when Catallina dropped them because the boat was overpowered too easily with it. The 150 met the same fate.

I don't know among the tall rigs, what headsails were offered. It does seem that Catalina offered a refit back to a standard rig for tall rig owners and may still do.

As I posted elsewhere, a problem is the shrouds. To fit a larger than 110, the shrouds on the wing keel were moved inboard. So the water ballast design (until very recently) is not capable of running more than a 110 unless it were the high clew drifter such as Ullman Sails offers which is sheeted aft.

In light air, the water ballast heavier and able to sport less sail would be at a disadvantage to a wing with a 135 or 150 especially off wind. However, it is believed that a water ballast will go to weather better with its deeper center board but there hasn't been enough comparison racing to know how the two boats stack up.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 15:17:45

I initially had a very long response to this thread that I deleted.

First and foremost, I do not want to open a can of worms here for what might be only a handful of boats. What I would like to do, since our rules are vague in many regards, phrf ratings don't exist, sail sizes upon receipt of boat might vary etc.etc. is to determine what/whom is actually coming to this years regatta. Based on that, we should be able to determine what classes we will have and if any rating needs to be used or if any penalties need to be assessed.

Then with the agreement of all involved we can have a C-250 race that will be enjoyable by all.

In the future then, we need to have a better wording of exactly what should be involved with ratings for all classes. I will propose this to the officers, attempt to rework things in this section and see if we can't submit it for a general membership vote. If you have opinions regarding this, email me at my yahoo address.

The main thing here is that everybody has fun. As a side note the regatta I attended 3 years ago did not have any 250's present so if we get some at this years regatta, I would consider that a great sucess.

What I would like to do then is have all of the owners of a 250 who plan or think they will attend post here with their boat rig type, keel type, jib size (max) and any rating that they may have locally along with there location.

Lets - just keep it to the basic information and save the debate for a bit later.

Thanks
dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 02/24/2003 15:37:44

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 15:23:01

Arlyn - many thanks! Now if ALL the C250 owners would go out and race, maybe we could come up with some accurate ratings...I haven't got the new PHRF Rating Handbook yet (it comes out in April), but in the 2002 one there were very, very few C250's listed.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 17:10:24

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> high clew drifter such as Ullman Sails offers which is sheeted aft.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Didn't Clint Eastwood play that role?

<img src="http://www.mike-werner.org/Interests/Cigars/Actor/Clint%20Eastwood.JPG" border=0>

Clint Eastwood is "The High Clew Drifter"

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 02/28/2003 17:13:01

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 22:50:23

Duane, I think you are thinking of a "high stakes grifter"

<img src="http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/72/039_43058.jpg" border=0>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2003 : 09:11:19

Been on the hard a bit too long have we? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.