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Rigging Adjustment Questions

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Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/10/2014 : 05:20:30

As a reminder to everyone, we are newbies. Not in the sense that we simply just started sailing our own boat but that we have just started… period. We have been on the water 5 times, once for a weekend with a friend which got us hooked, once with another friend who checked our sail inventory on our new C25 and make sure we had it set up well enough to sail and 3 times on our own teaching ourselves. Neither of these friends live close enough to simply stop by and help us learn the ropes and with the winds so sporadic this summer it's been hard to plan any kind of sailing.

My first question is when our friend was checking our head sail inventory it looked to him like we had a gennaker, made easy by the name on the sail bag, a 150 and a 110. One thing I noticed is that the 110 doesn't extend to the top of the mast and the clew makes it aft just rear of the port light to the head area. Does this sound right for a 110?

Yesterday we had our first wind in weeks, probably a sustained 4-7mph with gusts occasionally to maybe 10. The main is a bit ratty and we had what we think is the 110 up. We were on a close haul in a starboard tack with moderate heel (in my opinion) and I noticed all the port shrouds looked loose to me. In a gust and a decent heel they would move (vibrate) about an inch. On a port tack the starboard shrouds were similar - all of them, upper AND lower. I now know they need to be adjusted and I've read the manual but I'm trying to wrap my head around the adjustment instructions - I don't even know what 1M is. "All lower shrouds should be equally looser than the upper shrouds… if not adjust the upper shrouds" This is supposed to make sense to a new guy? haha After yesterday's sail I was talking to a couple marina workers who showed me a cable tension checking tool, a Loos & Co 90 Model B and said I could use it anytime:

http://www.loosnaples.com/tension-gauges/90-model-b

Problem is I'm not sure where to start. Is there a process this new guy can understand without standing on the boat and showing me? We would like to hit the lake again today if the winds cooperate but I want to get the standing rigging at least close to correct beforehand.

There are two other C25's in the marina, one of which we've never seen the owners and the other don't seem to be too personal. In fact, we sailed circles around each other in very light air on our second sail yesterday evening and even though we were almost in earshot they would never look our way or throw a wave. They followed us into the marina but by the time we parked they were parked and almost out of site into the parking lot. So much for that introduction.

Here's a shot of our ratty main, complete with mouse hole! haha We call ourselves the Clampetts of the marina.

Thanks everyone!

Edited by - Kper on 08/10/2014 05:25:48

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 05:45:50

The shrouds becoming loose on the leeward side is normal. Some say a loose rig is a fast rig. My shrouds bounce around like spaghetti. As
to the sail sizes,Basically they work like this. A sail that extends back EVEN with the mast would be a 100%. If it were to extend another 10% past the mast it would be a 110%, 35% past the mast would be a 135% and so on. A Loose guage is handy. It can tell you if the shrouds have even tension on both sides and that you haven't over tensioned the shrouds. You wouldn't want to drive the mast down through the cabin top.

Edited by - islander on 08/10/2014 06:05:05

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 05:51:56

Both uppers AND lowers?

Edit:
Just read your edit. NOW it makes sense to me about jib size. I will check it out today.

I will use the gauge today to make sure my shrouds are evenly adjusted. If I understand the manual correctly, the uppers should be a bit tighter than the lowers and the lowers evenly adjusted?

Edited by - Kper on 08/10/2014 07:03:10

pastmember
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Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 08:24:37

Rigging tension is a matter of taste after you get it tight enough to insure the rig won't fall down. Loos gauges are a pisser to use by the instructions because the uppers and lowers on a stock boat are different and Loos recommends a different gauge for those sizes. Don't worry about it. All a loos does is give you relative tension so YOU can make them all the same-ish. I do not like a loose rig but have used them on different boats.
Since a C25 has a mast head rig where the backstay and forestay both go all the way to the top of the mast and has straight spreaders, (as opposed to swept back spreaders), and fore and aft shrouds then it is a rig that is designed to be set up with the rake, (Degree the mast leans aft, all masts should lean back a couple of degrees) and maybe a little pre-bend, (the curve of a mast such that it bows a bit forward in the middle) and then left alone. The prebend will pull the middle of your main forward and that takes some of the "bag" out of the pocket, (the deep middle of the sail) and makes the sail act newer than it is.
So tuning is an event that takes a while and usually requires one to adjust the turnbuckles multiple times before everything is in harmony. Begin by adjusting the rake, get the forestay and backstay adjusted so the mast leans back a few degrees, (under 5 degrees) this has to be done with the back stay adjuster COMPLETELY RELEASED. If you have a split backstay with an adjuster you should take a bit of string or such and tie the adjuster to the fitting where the split connects to the backstay so the backstay is adjuster is not affecting the length of the backstay at all. A backstay adjuster on a C25 has less effect on a C25 than they do on other rig designs, more on that later.
After you have the forestay and backstay tightened it is time to make sure the mast is in column left to right, (athwart ship). You should have it close because before any final adjustments are done you should have the rig snugged a little all around so the mast is stable and often getting the mast in column is best done at that step. So lay on your back with your backside on the forward hatch and look up the mast from the base. I needs to be straight athwart ship, make it so with small adjustments to the lowers and upper shrouds. Once you have the mast rake and the mast in column you probably should call it good, but when you have owned the boat a while and get picky you may want to put the prebend in which means you tighten the forward lowers more than the aft lowers and that pulls the middle of the mast forward creating the bend.
Finally is the tightness of the rig. The loose rig is fast thing is because a baggy sail is a powerful sail, a flat sail is a de-powered sail, letting the mast move a little lets the sail shape stay more powerful and a tight rig won't.

THIS MATTERS!!!!! Your upper shrouds pass through the ends of your spreaders and MUST be tied, (seized) to the ends of the spreaders with swaging wire. The wire is tied so that the shroud can move past it up and down but cannot fall free of the spreader, (which could bring a mast down). Many boats have boots on the end of the spreaders which are a wonderful thing to protect your main but hide the condition of the shroud/spreader interface, that is fine if you KNOW what that condition is because you swaged it yourself but if you ave never seen what is under the boots then be afraid. Seizing wire is sold in small spools that will last a lifetime, usually SS wire. When a loose rig is on the wind the leeward shrouds will flop, inches is OK. A tight rig does not flop. Flopping stresses the swaging at the spreader, good maintenance makes that a non issue, bad maintenance makes that a lost rig.
The loos gauge comes in at the very last to set the final tension so things are as symmetrical as possible. I like a tight rig on a C25 so I would adjust until I just got a musical twang, more of a thwong really, at my shrouds; a nice bass note. All that matters is that the gauge reads the same, the number does not matter. On my gauge those readings were basically at the maximum for the gauge, sometimes I would go past the max but to the same degree on all shrouds. When using the loos stand on the cabin top next to the mast and apply the loos at shoulder height on the shroud, Repeat for each shroud so the gauge is at the same height every time you use it.

Now about tightening the turnbuckles. You must hold the shroud/stay while tightening the turnbuckle, there is a flat spot on opposite sides of the bottom of the shroud, at the top of the threaded fitting that must be held. I use a small crescent wrench that will not deform the flat spots the way pliers would over time. I think your boat has open turnbuckles but it might still have the barrel turnbuckles of the early boats. If you have barrel turnbuckles that use nuts to hold them in place then you should do what you can to get real turnbuckles, open ones that seize to hold their adjustment.
JUNK

JUNK

Correct

If you have correct turnbuckles then you rotate them with a stubby screwdriver while holding the shroud with the crescent. If you have the original barrels you rotate them with a spike/nail. If you have the bastard turnbuckles shown in the second photo then wear gloves because the brass edges of the open body part are like razors. Get correct turnbuckles as soon as you can. After the turnbuckles are adjusted you do not want them to change so you swage the open turnbuckles by passing seizing wire through the holes in the end of the threaded fitting and around the turnbuckle body so things cannot spin... same on the bastard buckles but good luck getting the covers to slide down over the seizing wire, if you have the closed barrel buckles then tighten the nuts and try not to lose sleep over the fact that they look the same whether they are loosening or staying tight. If you have the original barrel turnbuckles and you take one off and see that there is no hole in the end of the threaded part then your rigging is original and should be replaced due to age. No C25 should still be sailing with original rigging at this time.

Edited by - pastmember on 08/10/2014 19:37:06

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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769 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 08:31:03

Hi Kyle,
Here's a link to an article that I wrote for the Mainsheet several years ago about tuning a C25 rig. http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/snkmast.asp
Enjoy
Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 08:37:23

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Holcomb

Hi Kyle,
Here's a link to an article that I wrote for the Mainsheet several years ago about tuning a C25 rig. http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/snkmast.asp
Enjoy
Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Bill's article is wonderful and helps a lot. Read it first.

Edited by - pastmember on 08/10/2014 09:18:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 09:35:32

Forget about the Loos gauge for now. Think about the basics. You want to start by making the mast erect. You can check that by using the jib halyard. Let it out until it touches the chainplate at the point where the forward lower shroud is attached to the deck. Then do the same on the other side of the boat. If that measurement is the same on both sides, then the mast is erect. If the distance on one side is different, then adjust the upper stays on both sides until the measurement is approximately the same on both sides.

Next, you need to adjust the lower stays. Their main purpose is to keep the middle part of the mast in alignment. Lie on your back on the foredeck and sight up the mast. Observe whether it is bowed to one side. If it is straight, then begin to tighten the forward lowers. If the forward lowers are very loose on both sides, tighten them both by hand just until you have taken all the slack out of both of them.

Next, do the same with the aft lowers.

Next, sight up the mast again to be sure it is still straight.

Now you have the mast erect, and the stays on both sides of the mast should be snug, with no significant slack in any of the stays on either side.

Next, you need to tension all the stays. Start with the uppers, and tighten the starboard side upper turnbuckle by about 3 turns. Then tighten the port side upper by three turns. Continue tightening them on each side by one or two turns at a time, until the tension on the stays feels reasonably taut, but not bar-tight. The stays should still be able to deflect a bit, like a guitar string, when you pull on them. (The tension on the uppers should be <u>slightly</u> greater than the tension on the lowers, because the uppers are longer, and will stretch a bit more when under load.}

Next, adjust the forward lowers in the same manner.

Next, adjust the aft lowers in the same manner.

Sight up the mast again to be sure it's still straight.

When you have all the stays tensioned, sail the boat in about 10 kt winds. There are two things you should look for.

First, When the boat is sailing closehauled, the stays on the leeward side should just very slightly relax, but not so much that they sag or sway loosely. If they are too loose, then, when you get back to the dock, tighten each, by an equal number of turns, so that they won't sway loosely when you are sailing closehauled.

Secondly, you should feel the pressure on the tiller when sailing closehauled. You should feel a light pressure, but not a strong pressure. If the pressure (weather helm) is too strong, then you should loosen the backstay by a few turns, and tighten the forestay by a few turns. That will tilt the entire rig forward slightly, reducing weather helm. If there is no weather helm, or if it is too light, you can increase weather helm by tilting the rig aft. (When you tilt the rig either way, remember that you will need to re-adjust the forward and aft lowers accordingly.)

The overall objective is to make the rig erect, and in column, and snug it down just enough so that it can't move significantly from side to side when you tack the boat. You don't want the rig to be so loose that it can jump around or slam back and forth in a strong wind and choppy seas.

When you're done, you can check the tension on all the stays with a Loos gauge to be sure that they aren't too taut or too loose.

This procedure will get you started, and will accomplish the basic functions.

Many people underestimate the importance of tuning the rig. I bought a Cal 25 this spring to race, and found that it wasn't pointing or footing as well as the other Cals, and suspected the reason was that the rig was poorly tuned. I tuned it last Friday, and then raced it in the Friday night beer cans in Annapolis, and was first to finish. Until I re-tuned it, it felt like it was dragging something all around the race course. Now the helm feels light, and the boat can point as well as any of them.

Don't be intimidated by the process. It isn't that complicated when you understand that you basically want the mast to be erect and secure. I hope this helps.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/10/2014 09:40:05

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 17:03:15

Wow, thanks everyone. There is quite a lot of info in these texts, thank you!

The day got kinda stupid and we didn't make it to the marina today so that means I have all week to read and learn. One thing I did notice in scanning the replies and links is that I need to replace the 2 lower rear toggles (I'm guessing at the name - below the open turn buckle) because they are bent - I'm guessing from a previous mast raising. I am still using them because a fellow boat owner said they weren't bad enough to sideline the boat but I should get them replaced as soon as I can. I'm thinking now that I had better find replacements.

I also know that my mast makes an aft bend above the spreaders. I'm guessing the top of the mast is about and inch or two aft of the spreaders. I also previously checked my side-to-side adjustment (athwart?) using the jib halyard and it was spot on, give or take a bit of give in the halyard.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 17:04:05

Kyle, Frank Steve and Bill's info is excellent but you being new to sailing I am guessing your eyes glazed over reading all about tuning so I tried to keep it simple. It's a lot of info to try to absorb. For now I would say that yes it's OK that the shrouds become loose on the leaward side. Also if you have good feeling in the helm and you aren't fighting the tiller then the boat is in reasonable trim. I think you have enough to learn right now and tuning the rig and sail trim can come later at your own pace. Go out and sail the boat. Ask questions ( Thats what we are here for) None of them are stupid. All of us had to learn sometime. HAVE FUN!
Edit. I love the name of your boat. Being in a barn...I get it.

Edited by - islander on 08/10/2014 17:10:55

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 19:27:17

Agreed! If the mast seems to be pointing upward, and the shrouds aren't flapping too violently in a mild breeze, go sailing. If the boat tries too hard to turn upwind ("weather helm", making your arm tired), make sure the mast isn't raked back more than 4-6" (measured by letting the main halyard hang to the boom). If the boat consistently tries to turn away from the wind ("lee helm"), that's not good--rake the mast back (ease the forestay and tighten the backstay). You want some moderate weather helm for safety--it's a little like a "dead-man's throttle"--let go (or fall overboard), and the boat stops.

I never got into scientific tuning, but kept my rig tight enough that the leeward upper shroud didn't quite go slack on a beat into a 10-15 knot breeze. The lowers did, slightly. That's generally considered a tight rig, more common among cruisers than racers. As long as you heed Frank's warning about "seizing wire" on the spreaders, the tightness or looseness of your rig is not going to be an issue until you start wanting to improve your performance (by a fraction of a knot or so) or ease the pressure on your tiller. Get back to us then.

Enjoy!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 08/10/2014 : 20:32:15

quote:
Originally posted by Kper

My first question is when our friend was checking our head sail inventory it looked to him like we had a gennaker, made easy by the name on the sail bag, a 150 and a 110. One thing I noticed is that the 110 doesn't extend to the top of the mast and the clew makes it aft just rear of the port light to the head area. Does this sound right for a 110?

The percentage (110, 135, 150...etc) is based on the Luff Perpendicular (LP) measurement of the headsail in relation to the J dimension of a boat (C25 J = 10.5') The LP is measured from the clew to a point on the luff. The LP line should be perpendicular to the luff and will also be the shortest distance from the clew to the luff.

If your LP measures 15' 9", it is a 150. (LP divided by J = Percentage)

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 08/11/2014 : 05:01:43

Along with Don's diagram I will add this one too. It helped me to understand the parts of a sailboat when I was learning.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 08/11/2014 : 18:38:13

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Along with Don's diagram I will add this one too. It helped me to understand the parts of a sailboat when I was learning.

That's right about where we're at!! Too funny!

Edited by - Kper on 08/11/2014 18:43:44

jerlim
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Response Posted - 08/13/2014 : 09:57:50

Bill - thanks for reposting your article...just printed a copy to keep onboard.

Edited by - on

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
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