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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Is this Catalina 25 boat lift safe?

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Luckenbach
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/04/2003 : 22:23:47

It looks plenty strong, maybe TOO strong. What I'm concerned about is the use of 4"X6" treated wood for the support beams that contact the hull. Will these bend sufficiently or will the boat just sit on a foot or so of the beams? A friend of mine just had it built and wants me to move her boat over there, but I'm concerned about hull damage. I'd appreciate yall taking a look and letting me know what you think. Here's a link to a webpage with pictures of the lift:
http://www.sailingtexas.com/cloreelift.html

David Luckenbach

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 22:37:34

That's the bunks? Looks way too stiff to me.

IMHO it also should be canted to the inside
to fit the hull profile otherwise the hull
will be sitting on one corner of the wood..

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 22:57:42

I absolutely agree with Clam... and once on the lift, the boat is going to move around when somebody climbs on or off, since it's only supported amidships. Four independent wood pads angled to the hull would be better--much like the stands my boat sits on now. I'd also like to see some knee bracing on the four legs--the sailing displacement of a C-25 is generally over 6000 lbs.

That raises another question: What keel do you have? On the hard or on a trailer, the keel should be supported instead of hanging freely. I would think that would be true on a lift as well.

Has this builder done this before for a keelboat?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2003 : 23:01:20

David,

I've viewed the linked images, and I agree with your concerns. Whether on a trailer, stands, boat lift, etc. a hull should be supported over as much of its submerged surface as practical. The 4"x6" lift beams look like they will put all of the boat's weight on two very small footprints, "bruising" the fiberglass. I think it might also rock like a hobbyhorse unless tied down.

I'd suggest either some sort of slings, or formed support rails. Maybe you could laminate up a pair of tall beams 4" wide from 2"x(whatever) lumber, and trim the top edges to match the hull curvature. These would be installed in place of, or on top of, the existing 4"x6" straight beams. To get even broader support, add a few layers of plywood maybe 8" wide on top of the beams against the hull, and maybe some carpeting for additional padding. Details would depend on local weather conditions, your tools and skills, the customer's preferences and budget, etc.

Has anyone else ever seen a lift like this used under a two or three ton sailboat hull? I once saw a Parker-Dawson 26 f'glass sloop hauled out using a powerboat forklift, and that gave me the creeps too.

-- Leon Sisson

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 00:50:13

This boat lift doesn't look like it would even work with a flat-bottomed powerboat, let alone a sailboat. All boat hulls have some degree of streamlining and curve, and those wood beams are completely flat. Almost all Catalina 25 trailers that I have seen use rollers, I have only seen a couple of C-25 Fin Keel hulls on pads or bunks. And even then, the pads or bunks were curved and angled to fit the hull curve!

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

visio
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 01:11:27

David,

I have a (somewhat unusual) trailer for my Catalina 25 that uses two bunks in addition to six pads. The bunks are parallel 2x6's that are just outside the swing keel trunk. Even in this somewhat flat area of the boat, I had to adjust the supports on each end of the bunks to match the curvature of the hull. In addition, the bunk supports pivot port and starboard a little again to match the curvature of the hull. The bunks themselves warp fore and aft to match curvature in that direction.

I don't think 4x6's would warp enough. The lack of pivots and adjustable supports would concern me too.

Just in case anyone is thinking of using bunks for a trailer, my advice is don't do it; use rollers. It's a real b|+{h getting the boat properly positioned fore and aft unless you can put the trailer really deep into the water.

Dave Laws
C-25 TR/SK #2580 "Visio"
Stillwater, OK

Edited by - visio on 03/05/2003 01:14:13

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Luckenbach
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 08:37:42

Yes, the builder plans to tilt the bunks inward. Yes, the lift has a keel support built in that will be adjusted to support the keel (it's a swing keel).

No, he hasn't built a lift for a Catalina 25 before, he mostly does powerboats. According to him the manufacturer, The Boat Lift Co (a Texas builder), recommended the 4X6 bunks.

David Luckenbach

Edited by - on

cat30
1st Mate

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73 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 09:14:21

MY trailer for a Cat25 wing keel had 2x8s for bunks- we adjusted the suipports while the boat was inthe slings in the boat yard- the hull seemed well supported- trailer also had adjustable jack stands. there was also support under the keel so it wasn't just hanging there

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 12:24:54

Not good. The 4 by 6's will break rather than bend. If you want bend, the mounts for the wood should allow the wood to pivot and the wood should be 2 by whatever (8 or 10) with no knots or splits. In the picture it looks like the wood is bolted directly to the metal posts.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5938 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 13:09:04

David,

The weight of the swing keel on a C-25 should rest on the hoist when it is stored out of the water. The bunkboards should carry the remaining weight of the boat. To the best of my recollection, all the boat trailers I have seen have 2” X 6”, or 2” X 8” bunkboards, covered with carpet, for padding. I agree with the others that 4” X 6” bunkboards would be too inflexible. (I suspect that, when your builder consulted the manufacturer of the hoist, he gave them the full weight of the boat, and not just the weight of the boat minus the weight of the keel. The added ¾ ton of weight would undoubtedly influence their opinion as to the size of the bunkboards.) I don’t think the 4” X 6” bunkboards would bend enough to conform to the curved shape of the hull. If they did bend that much, they might snap. The boards should bend, so that they spread the stress over a larger area of the boat. If too much stress is concentrated on too small an area, then it might damage the boat’s gel coat, or even its structure.

The problem that you have is, if you insist that the builder use thinner boards than is recommended by the builder, then he probably won’t stand behind his work, if the boards fail.

If I were you, I would put the dilemma in the builder’s lap. I would get information from two or three boat trailer builders, showing what size bunkboards they use. Then I would factually and politely explain your concerns about the size of the bunkboards in writing, ask the builder to decide what is best, attach your explanation to copies of the information furnished by the trailer builders, keep an exact copy of everything for yourself, and then let the builder of your hoist decide what to do. If they build a hoist that damages your boat, they will be liable. If you insist that they build it in a different way than they recommend, they will probably consider that you did so at your own risk. If it appears that the bunkboards are too inflexible, it won’t be difficult or expensive to replace them.

It is very important that you be present, with a camera, and watch the first time the boat is lifted on the hoist. I once saw a brand new C-25 that was being trailer-launched by the dealer. Something went wrong, and the boat came off the trailer wrong, and ended up sitting on its transom, with its bow pointing straight up to the sky. An hour later, the happy new owner arrived to find his shiny new boat floating properly on her lines, and he never had a clue that it had been so roughly handled. If you aren’t there, you will never know what horrors your boat might have gone through. If you see something that doesn’t look right when they hoist your boat for the first time, ask them to stop, look at it, and think it over before they go further.

Don’t try to tell your builder how to do his job, and don’t create a hostile relationship with him. Gather reliable information, and then collaborate with your builder, to get it right. The fact that he has consulted the manufacturer of the hoist tells you he is looking for the best available information, and that’s a good sign. If the details get worked out, it looks like it will be a great system.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 13:42:28

Dave,

Lots of good advice so far all suggesting the excessness of the rigidity of the timbers shown. I've been thinking of the cradles that the C25 comes with. Those that I've seen are of metal structure with two 5/4"X 8"X approx.10'bunks that are preformed to accept the curvature of the Cat 25. Any thing less would, in my judgement, be unacceptable. Also the swing must not, under any circumstance, support the boat's weight. The boat must be supported first and then the keel lowered to support itself. To do otherwise will cause the keel trunk to be subjected to more stress than it can handle.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

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Luckenbach
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 14:28:57

This is the response from the Sailboat Shop in Austin, local Catalina dealer Ken and Kari:

Hi David,

Kari and I just got back from visiting Catalina in Califorina. It was a very interesting visit and learned quit abit about the construction of the boats.

I agree with you on the opnion of the catalina 25 boat lift. The boards may flex but at first there will be a lot of pressure not distributed properly. If it is a fixed keel, ideally the weight should be 60% on the keel and 40% on the hull. For a swing keel the weight should be distributed along the length of the hull and you should be able to lower the keel to take the weight off of the keel cable.

The builder should take a look at a 25 foot sailboat on a trailer to get a better idea of the hull shape of sailboats.

I hope this helps.

Ken

David Luckenbach

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Luckenbach
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 15:23:17

Many thanks to all who are contributing to this discussion, you are a great group! I would hate to see Loree's beautiful Catalina 25 with hull damage.

NO ONE has recommended the 4x6 beams except the manufacturor of the lift, The Boat Lift Company (no website), I think in Montgomery, Texas. I have not heard back from my iquiry to Catalina yet, but one dealer says 4X6 beams are too stiff.

So what should we use? If those of you that actually have a lift for their Catalina 25 can tell us what they are using and how well it works, Loree would really appreciate it. I will go back over there and measure what the span is between the supports, with my bad memory it seems like it was 10 or 12 feet. Any information on what DOES work will be appreciated. If you can email me pictures I will put them on the webpage, it would be nice to have a resource of boatlifts that worked for the Catalina 25.

I put some pictures of a Catalina 25 trailer on the webpage for comparison of the angle and curvature of the hull.
http://www.sailingtexas.com/cloreelift.html

David

David Luckenbach

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5938 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 17:30:31

David,

Show the pictures of the trailer to the person who is building your hoist. The bunks on the hoist should be configured the same way as the bunks on the trailer. Whether the boat is sitting on a hoist or on a trailer, it still needs to be supported in the same way.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 17:35:50

David: You're on the right track with the trailer... A boat trailer has the added task of supporting the boat as it bumps down the road, so what works there should be more than adequate for that lift. BTW, notice the knee braces on the trailer, as I commented on earlier.

We're all gratified that you're looking out for that C-25!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 03/05/2003 17:37:51

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Luckenbach
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2003 : 20:34:25

I received this answer from David Graas - Catalina Yachts Technical Support

David, We use 2 X 6 not 4 X 6 in the shop cradles. I think you are right that those 4 X 6 's will not deflect enough to comform to the hull. Also, it would be best that the swing keel could be lower onto a cross member to take some of the load off the hull and as a safety factor incase the keel cable would break. If the swing keel falls freely from its up position,it can crack the hull.
Thanks! David Graas

David Luckenbach

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