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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Engine troubles - AGAIN!

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5371 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2015 : 21:13:25

A month or two ago I mentioned the engine cut out due to fuel line problems. Well this time, plenty of fuel. The water pump quit whilst I was 2-3 miles offshore and about 5 miles out of my home port.
Was sailing then the wind died. I decided to grab a bite as the forecast called for a wind switch in an hour or so. After a quick bite, I started motoring. No cooling water was being output, so I killed the engine to prevent damage.
But there was no wind, however the current was dragging me away from my harbor...!
Now what????
So, just as advertised, the south wind popped up - it was blowing at 10+ kts. Man - was I ever happy about that. I sailed right back into the harbor. I got to the parts store just before they closed.
I deduced it was the impeller at fault. Yesterday eve, it took me about 2 hours to swap it out. Then I started up the motor and water was pumping thru the block.
Today I wanted to give it a good test and before I went 500 yards, the engine started bucking so I stopped it. The breeze got me back to the dock. Now the engine stopped pumping ANY water once again.
I checked the thermostat - it opened when hot and closed down when cold.
Tomorrow I plan to check the engine for random floating pieces of old impeller rubber caught in the water pipes, I assume that's the problem, but I also plan to see whether the impeller got chewed up again, or the key pin fell out. Saved the old one. Oh vey!
I'd rather be sailing!!!!

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2015 : 06:11:25

Sorry to hear this Bruce, Engine problems can really ruin your day. You just replaced the impeller 1-2 years ago so I'm a little surprised that it failed. It could be pieces of old rubber or possibly you had the intake blocked by something for a minute like seaweed or a plastic bag. When you stopped the engine it fell off so you never saw it. I removed my thermostat and run without one. Also you cant go by the teltail(pisser). It only shows that the pump is working but doesn't show that the thermostat opened and the engine block is getting water. This is why I removed my thermostat. Make sure the teltail hole is clear of salt build up. Use a paperclip to clean it out. Good luck.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2015 : 17:47:00

TowboatUS, $125/year in most places. I've had it 6 years and never used it, but it gives real peace of mind.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2015 : 18:08:50

Bruce -- if I am not mistaken you have a Honda engine. FWIW I have a Honda 50 hp on a skiff and had an 8 hp for a former sail boat. My experience is that they are very finicky engines as far as fuel quality is concerned. The 8 hp required additive (lots of it) to keep the fuel "fresh" The 50 hp has been very problematic despite fuel filters and the like. With that engine I have to also keep reinstalling the water/exhaust tube so the water flows out of the engine case rather than backing up in the engine case and flooding the carb. Also (and I digress) I had a Honda lawnmower that was terrible unless it had fresh gas, but again, I digress) My layman's recommendation is to dump the gas, clean any filter and/or carb/fuel system, check to make sure the exhaust rubber tube is connected to the discharge fitting in the engine case and next time . . . . . go with a less problematic Tohatsu or, what I have been told, virtually problem free Yamaha.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 07/18/2015 18:11:05

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5371 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2015 : 20:39:39

Whoa - the Honda is finicky but I use the gas up pretty quickly. I usually put a few drops of Stabil in the gas anyway.
I figured out what happened. The old impeller self destructed. All at once. Maybe something hard got sucked into the water pump and chewed it up. Once I replaced the impeller, the water pump STILL didn't work.
So I took it apart again. Found a lot of rubber shards inside the bottom of the pump housing. Cleaned it out.
I also tried to blow through the pump. No dice. Then I found that the pump housing was semi-rotated, blocking the port so no water could possibly flow. Fixed that, then the water tube connecting the pump to the engine block was misaligned. Fixed that and finally Viola! The water pump worked. (Took 3 days, 3 nice sailing days with good winds and fair weather.).
So it's all back together now and running great. The thermostat works fine - opens when hot, closes when cold. It's said that the thermostat makes the engine run at its ideal temperature (around 200� F). It's supposed to produce greatest efficiency. Whatever...
So afterward I took a spin up and down the harbor, then went a little farther. Pumped fine and the head warmed up but did not overheat. Was all good. Case closed, for now, I hope.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2015 : 06:21:00

That impeller wasn't but a year or two old so it didn't die from old age. That's why I thought it was a lack of water problem suggesting a plastic bag or something getting caught on the intake. Well as it turns out it was a lack of water but more of a mechanical issue. The killer is that Fri. and Sat. were great sailing but today Sun. looks like a dead wind day.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5371 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2015 : 07:04:33

Funny about that - while I was working in the dockyard, all my harbor buddies were coming back in from sailing with HUGE grims plastered all over their faces - kinda like a "runner's high" from endorphins after several hours of PERFECT sailing conditions, which in our area equals 9-12s due South. You can traverse the south coast of CT both ways at 60� apparent wind heeled over at 15-20 doing 5kts. Now that's sailing nirvana! We should have a nicer day or two during the week, and I should be able to play hookey to make up for it!

Edit:
"...Sun. looks like a dead wind day

So wait a second Scott - while winds in your neighborhood are quiet now, between noon and 8pm they will exceed 10 out of the SSW. Looks like later the winds will hit 13kts! Carpe Diem!

Edited by - Voyager on 07/19/2015 07:12:41

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2015 : 08:35:30

Sounds like you fixed your Honda problem. FWIW, let me add one more possible failure mode which I have encountered. The little plastic attachment that the motor "pees" though tends to get plugged up with a mineral deposit. I can see it coming when the stream (which is very forceful) starts turning into a spray. When this happens, the solution is simple. Take off the engine cover, detach the black hose, remove the plastic attachment (carefully, or it may go overboard), poke a pin through the attachment to push out the debris, and then reassemble. It takes about 5 minutes.

I believe that the reason this happens is that the solubility of minerals goes down with temperature, so the constant intake of cold water which gets heated by the motor leads to a continuous supply of precipitate. This also leads to fouling of the thermostat which requires its occasional replacement. I speculate that fouling of the cooling surfaces may require occasional acid cleaning, but that's for the dealer to do. (Haven't had to do that yet.)

I just want you to be aware of this.

I had always thought that the pee hole was for visual confirmation only, and that plugging it would not prevent cooling of the motor, but it does seem to run warmer when the hole is partially clogged. (Need to check a schematic of the cooling system to understand why.)

One thing I need to do is order a spare plastic insert for the pee hole because of the high risk that it could go overboard when cleaning. I'll have to add that to the list.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

jduck00
Captain

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313 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2015 : 11:38:23

When the impeller on my Yamaha failed, the smaller bits and pieces went up through the cooling system. Took me a while to get all of them out. They were definitely slowing the flow down.

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2015 : 16:31:32

quote:
When the impeller on my Yamaha failed, the smaller bits and pieces went up through the cooling system. Took me a while to get all of them out. They were definitely slowing the flow down.

Yep and another place to look is behind the inlet screens where the water gets sucked in. The little pieces of rubber will go back down the pick up tube when you turn the motor off and the water drains back out of the impeller cup.
Take Five, I never had to take the tube apart, Usually a paper clip stuck up in the pee hole and wiggled around with the engine running clears it for me.
I just re-read that....No I don't have a medical problem

quote:
So wait a second Scott - while winds in your neighborhood are quiet now, between noon and 8pm they will exceed 10 out of the SSW. Looks like later the winds will hit 13kts! Carpe Diem!

You were right, Exactly what happened.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Edited by - islander on 07/19/2015 16:34:01

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2015 : 16:49:06

quote:
Originally posted by islander

[quote]...Take Five, I never had to take the tube apart, Usually a paper clip stuck up in the pee hole and wiggled around with the engine running clears it for me...

Obviously that's the first thing that I tried, but the debris just comes right back down and clogs it again. I needed to take the plastic nozzle off and push the debris out the entrance. In each case, I was able to retrieve the little chunk that was caught in there.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5371 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2015 : 07:52:26

Thanks guys - I will check those areas - there was a pretty good collection of junk in the pump, so it's likely some flowed both upwards and down. I'll check for deposits in the tubes where I can too.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2015 : 13:28:25

I had a honda 8hp also and several times the little pee hose clogged up and had to be pulled off and cleaned out .. reaching up from the outside was not able to clean it out . It only takes about 10 minutes.

FRank Law

Retired member

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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USA
707 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2015 : 05:01:12

When mine imploded (Tohatsu 6hp), I had a reputable outboard mechanic repair it. Because of the tons of shards that went everywhere he removed the head from the motor to get the pieces out to ensure they didn't get wedged further into the block or anything.

Captain Rob & Admiral Alyson
"David Buoy"-1985 C25 SK/SR #5053

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