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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Outboard size for C 27?

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dalelargent
Navigator

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USA
198 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/17/2016 : 11:41:18

Hi all,

I am further helping my son get his (new to him) 1976 C27 ready for sailing and safe motoring. While it came w an inboard, some PO installed a cheap motor mount and a rough-running regular shaft johnson 15 hp 2-stroke.

Spent some money and got the motor running great, but the controls are difficult to reach as they are ways below the transom-top, and the tiller way forward in the cockpit, and the water pick-up barely in the water.

Seriously considering selling the Johnson and purchasing a 4-stroke long shaft. If so, what is the minimum HP we can push that boat with safely? Will a Honda 9.9 do it?

Or, is it more practical to change the lower unit on the existing johnson into a long shaft? Is that possible?

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 12:08:17

My findings regarding an old Honda (years ago) were that replacing the lower unit was not financially practical. You need a new driveshaft, a new gearshift shaft, a new exhaust pipe, and of course a casing extension. The older the motor, the more trouble you'll have finding those parts--and many older motors didn't offer what you really need--an EXTRA long (XL) shaft. (The Johnson Sailmaster did.)

I got a nice price for the old Honda, and bought a new one (8 hp "Power Thrust" with electric start--plenty for the C-25). While a 9.9 will probably be sufficient, I think for the C-27 I'd seriously consider a 15 XL--especially if I expected to be motoring through some significant chop or into serious wind. And I'd look hard at the Honda 15 with the Power Thrust option (larger prop with lower pitch) for maneuvering and stopping that heavy boat.

Then I'd look hard at replacing the bracket--the 15 hp 4-stroke might be too much weight and thrust for what you have, and a new one might do a better job of keeping the prop down in the water.

But I'd also wonder about that inboard... A 27' sailboat is probably at about the limit for motoring in open water with an outboard, due to its tendency to lift the motor out of the water as it pitches fore-and-aft. The inboard solves that problem, but re-powering is complicated and expensive.

Dave Bristle
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now departed from Mystic, CT, and boatless for the first time since 1970.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/17/2016 12:13:23

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2016 : 15:17:56

The size motor that you need depends on where you sail. On a small inland lake, with little or no current, and smallish waves, and where you'll need the motor mostly to get in and out of the marina, a six hp will probably be plenty. I have a friend with a 28 ft boat on the Chesapeake Bay that is slightly heavier than the C27, and he finds an 8 hp Honda adequate. I would recommend the longest shaft available. I have never heard anyone claim that their outboard shaft was too long.

There's generally no problem with the prop lifting out of the water when running downwind. That problem arises when motoring to windward. As a wave rolls under the boat, it lifts it. When the wave reaches the stern, the bow is tilted down and the stern is lifted, so that the prop lifts out of the water and spins in the air. That happens over and over with every wave. A more powerful motor won't help that situation. Regardless of the motor's horsepower, it won't drive the boat while the prop is spinning in the air. That's why I'm not so sure that a motor more powerful than perhaps a 9.9 will help in most cases. Theoretically, a more powerful motor would help you drive through a strong chop, as long as the prop is in the water, but in reality, when the chop becomes so big that you need more power, it starts to lift the prop out of the water, so, that power can't be used effectively.

The solution to the dilemma is, if you have an outboard motor, you should only use it to get in and out of your marina, and raise your sails. While an outboard motor won't be able to drive the boat to windward against a fair sized chop, the sails generate much more power than the outboard, and that power is continuous, and it can drive the boat through much bigger chop. So, if you need to go to windward against a chop, use the sails, not the motor. If you want to go to windward and can't sail for some reason, you should probably change your plan and motor downwind, either to an alternate destination, or to a place where you can shelter until the conditions abate or the wind direction becomes more favorable. With a boat, sometimes the conditions of wind and sea, and your boat's equipment, dictate whether or not you can go where you'd like to go.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2016 : 21:24:40

Or motor sail. I've been out a couple of times when the chop was creating the conditions mentioned by Steve and I couldn't make much headway with the motor only for the reasons stated above. I finally put the sails up and it settled the boat down and I was able to make decent headway.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2016 : 15:54:41

Sails definitely calm the boat and make motor sailing a reasonable alternative. A 9.9 never goes to full throttle on a C-25 and would probably be plenty.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2016 : 17:14:31

Remove the inboard to dump the weight, the OB should be centered like the stock OB version. I think I would buy a mount with enough lift and standoff for the OB to clear the water on tacks and be able to tilt. Without the stock cutout the OB will want to hit the transom when tilted. You will want remote controls and should try to center the motor and only use the rudder to maneuver. If you need to use the OB tiller for added maneuvering be sure to buy a motor with a tiller that tilts way up and still steers the motor. Be sure to use a backing plate on the motor mount, I hope the access is good for that.

Frank Hopper

dalelargent
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2016 : 00:05:37

Thanks for the input, everybody. I especially like the idea of the remote engine controls, allowing the boat to be operated closer to design. We will pursue that.

Very tempted to remove the old inboard...but curious if the boat was designed around it's weight as a ballast. Is this thought relevant?

Dale

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

dalelargent
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
198 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2016 : 00:08:16

Forgot to mention I also highly valued the discussion on motoring in heavy chop. It all makes so much sense now!

Dale

1989 c25 WK/TR #5838
1998 Catalina 36 mkii
1983 Vagabond 14

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2016 : 08:23:54

quote:
Originally posted by dalelargent

...Very tempted to remove the old inboard...but curious if the boat was designed around it's weight as a ballast.

Catalina built a number of C-27s with no inboard, and with a cut-out in the transom allowing an outboard to be clamped on and to be tilted up into the lazarette without using a bracket. I don't know how convenient that was, and I suspect the lower unit dragged under sail, but it suggests the boat isn't greatly affected by the absence of the inboard. Here's one I found on Yachtworld.

Dave Bristle
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now departed from Mystic, CT, and boatless for the first time since 1970.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2016 : 09:14:21

By far, more C27s were originally equipped with outboards than with inboards. I have sailed both, and an inboard C27 was slower and more sluggish compared to an outboard C27. I believe replacing the inboard with an outboard will result in much more lively performance. If you sail on a small inland lake, you'll love the outboard. In a big lake or bay, or along the coast, the outboard's biggest drawback would be the reduced ability of the boat to go to windward under power in a chop. The inboard is much better in big waters, with lots of power boat traffic, which create big chop. If you must motor south, for example, against wind out of the south/southwest in those conditions, you can help the outboard by motorsailing under mainsail only, which will help hold the stern down and supplement the power of the motor, which will help drive the boat through the chop. It will also help alot to sail as close as you can in the lee of the windward shore, where the waves will be much smaller. In smaller waves, the prop is less inclined to lift out of the water.

I have two boats on the Chesapeake, a C&C 35 with an inboard engine, and a Cal 25 with a 6 hp outboard. Both will get me where I want to go, but not always on the same time schedule, or by using the same strategies.

In the spring, I'll have to take the Cal north to Annapolis, a distance of about 30 miles. I'll choose a day to make that trip when the wind is either light, or abaft the beam, and preferably out of the west. To attempt that trip with 12-15 kts wind on the nose would make for a very long, wet, uncomfortable day. If the wind is on the beam, out of the west, and about 12-15 kts, it would be a delightful, fast sail all the way, without using the outboard at all.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/27/2016 09:26:47

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2016 : 20:16:41

I too would think that a 9.9 4 stroke outboard would be sufficient power for a C-27. Without the transom cut-out, I should think a long shaft or XL shaft would be desirable. Official displacement is 6,850 lbs. Two friends of mine have Capri 26 sailboats with 8 hp outboards. Displacement of the Capri 26 is 5,250 lbs.

DavidP
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2016 : 22:32:13

If 9.9 is satisfactory, in the Honda line, the "Power Thrust" 8 might be even better. It's the same engine as the 9.9, cammed for more torque at lower RPMs, less hp at wide-open-throttle (which sailboats never use), and priced lower (purely a marketing thing). I got that from a Honda rep who said it was the better choice for a sailboat. So I bought one--extra long with electric start. It drove our C-25 with ease and stopped it like it had run into a pillow.

Dave Bristle
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now departed from Mystic, CT, and boatless for the first time since 1970.

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2016 : 12:45:46

Mercury Bigfoot 9.9 is geared for displacement driving and is also a great choice. The combined throttle/shift is really nice, but it isn'e cheap and Hondas generally have higher amp charging circuits in equivalent motors. I also like Honda and Yamaha fuel connections and converted the tank end of my fuel lines. I'm still of the opinion that all of the name brand motors are reliable products and you should buy by the features you want, availability of service in your area (Mercuries not so good where I winter but great in my summer area), and price, regardless of brand. I list price last because as my wife said when I was shopping, "As long as these things seem to last, I think you should buy what you want.". She's right when you look at satisfaction and cost per year of ownership

ps
The noise level alone is worth buying a 4 stroke.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Edited by - Dave5041 on 01/28/2016 12:54:13

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