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Bottom Paint

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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/08/2016 : 05:08:44

This Friday I am pulling the boat. It will be in the storage shed while we are traveling for the next couple of months. When I get back I intend to re-do the bottom paint, along with some other items. The boat had a fresh barrier coat and bottom paint when I bought the boat four years ago. I would like some opinions as to what bottom coating works best in fresh water. (Texas inland man-made lake) We get hair type algae growth.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2016 : 06:09:56

Do you know what's on there now? Do you pull the boat out for other periods of time?

Ablative paints keep their effectiveness in prolonged exposure to air. Hard paints (including VC-17) don't, and can't be put on top of ablatives, but ablatives can go on hard paint (if it's tight to the hull). Hard paints can remain effective for several years if left in the water, and don't wear away gradually (a blessing and a curse).

I like Pettit Hydrocoat SR--a water-based ablative with an anti-algae additive--much nicer to work with. But I'm in a brackish estuary. See what other folks in your neighborhood like.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage before going over to the Dark Side (2007-2025); now boatless for the first time since 1970 (on a Sunfish).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/08/2016 06:15:30

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2016 : 06:22:40

A Petit rep at the Annapolis sailboat show last year told me to buy Trinidad, not Trinidad SR, because, until Irgarol becomes available again, if ever, there is no slime resister in Trinidad SR, and the formula for Trinidad and Trinidad SR is identical, but Trinidad SR costs more.

If a slime resisting additive becomes available, IMO it will be well worth the extra cost.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3502 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2016 : 07:19:47

I have been using Interlux Micron Extra (Copolymer) for sailing on the upper Potomac River year-round. MIcron Extra contains Biolux which is an anti-slime biocide. It has been working fine with an annual pressure wash and reapplying after 3-4 years. Not saying it is the best since there may be another copolymer or ablative that will work as good or better and of less cost since Micron Extra is fairly expensive. A paint having the highest copper content percentage is not as important in freshwater as it containing an anti-slime biocide.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2016 : 14:25:24

How copper is used is as important as how much is in the paint. Copolymers probably win the best use award. I have been using a soft ablative for easy bottom prep, but plan to change to a copolymer. I think the soft ablatives wear away faster then necessary and release excessive Cu into the water.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2016 : 19:49:23

Pettit Hydrocoat, which I mentioned above, is not listed as a "copolymer" ablative, but running at five to 25+ knots over 150+ hours a season, I have only needed to touch up areas where the builder's hard paint has let go, and along the waterline, this year and last. I will probably put a full coat on next year.

Something I saw on copolymers said that a primary advantage was for boats that don't move very much. A chemical reaction does what water motion does for regular ablatives, so that the surface of the paint dissipates even as the boat sits in a slip, exposing fresh biocides. Maybe I should look into that... But I do like working with a water-based paint.

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3502 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2016 : 04:27:15

Off topic but when I go for my annual pressure wash at a nearby marina, I am always curious as to just how much growth has built up and during the first 2 years after applying the co-polymer, there is little buildup. The way it works at the nearby marina (Wash Sailing Marina) is that they lift the boat out on a travel lift and just move it so it is just on land above their water grate. Then when they pressure wash, the growth, debris, whatever drains down thru the grate and gets pumped thru their filtration system and then filtered water goes back into the Potomac River.

So, I was asking the guys performing the pressure wash if they get any really bad bottoms to clean since there are always some boats in the marinas that are, shall we say, a bit behind in maintenance.....like maybe they never had the boat taken out and pressure washed, nevermind bottom repainted. These are the boats where the it is no longer growth on the bottom, the plants are actually growing off the bottom with threads visible on the sides !!

So, the guys told me that it was a good thing I did not come over for the pressure wash the week before because their pump and filtration system was out of commission. They had one such boat come in for a pressure wash and they had to literally go over the bottom with some lawn tools or something maybe a shovel (can't recall) before they then pressure washed. Even so, the debris wound up shutting down their pump and system due to being all clogged up !

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/10/2016 04:28:52

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2016 : 05:15:29

Be very careful with bottom paint selection. Since BASF discontinued Irgarol last year, you can't trust anything. Practical Sailor reviews, etc. are all obsolete and meaningless if the reviewed paints had Irgarol or NCN (generic acronym for the same thing).

Some companies have quietly "reformulated" their paints, but there's no biocide. For instance, Pettit Ultima SR-40 (40% copper, 2% Irgarol) was reformulated to 47% copper, 0% Irgarol). They're giving you some extra copper (nice for hard growth in salt water), but no biocide. (Last year when I painted I found some SR-40 make just before they ran out of Irgarol.)

Even talking to others in your own marina (the most effective way of getting a recommendation, because they share the same water), you can't trust what they say because their paint may have been made with Irgarol.

It's a real mess for freshwater sailors. Hopefully the Chinese will steal the recipe and sell a knockoff. I work product development R&D in the paint, ink, and adhesive industry, and BASF has a bad reputation for discontinuing key products that their customers rely on with little or no advance notice. This is just the latest example.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2016 : 06:32:56

quote:
Originally posted by TakeFive

...BASF has a bad reputation for discontinuing key products that their customers rely on with little or no advance notice. This is just the latest example.

Perhaps it's because Irgarol is developing a bad reputation for low biodegradation (100 day half-life in the water) and its effects on the bottom of the food-chain around the world. So far the UK and Denmark have banned it, and BASF might be anticipating legal problems from contaminating the waters around the world. Here's an article--just do a text search (Ctrl-F) for Irgarol. You'll find a lot.

I think the paint I used this year, left over from last, might have been some of the last that Pettit produced before Irgarol was dropped. But then, maybe I can remove most of the slime, at least on the bottom, by running Sarge up to 30 knots.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/10/2016 06:34:42

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2016 : 06:51:01

I don't disagree on the importance of good product stewardship, and the need to remove environmentally harmful components. I had seen some of the articles last year when I was trying to figure out why they had discontinued it.

But BASF has been very poor at giving advance notice of their plans to their customers. Formulation houses invest millions of dollars in developing and testing formulations containing their ingredients, and they need to know ahead of time if something is going to be discontinued. My bad experiences were not over environmental issues, they were purely profit-driven product discontinuations. We had invested 3 years of testing in a new polymer (and downstream inkjet ink formulas) containing one of their monomers, traveling to customers all over the world to ensure it was performing well in their end-use testing, and a month before launch they pulled the plug on it. We had to start over with our product design - as well as redo all the global regulatory certicfications.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2016 : 08:29:39

I'm thinking there might be a dilemma here... If your company concludes or hears there's a serious environmental, health, or safety issue regarding your product that suggests discontinuing it, do you continue to produce and distribute it for some period that allows your customers to continue using it because it might cost them (or be inconvenient) to stop? What will your lawyers say? What happens when the e-mails and memos are discovered, saying you knew about it but kept producing and selling it for your "customers' convenience?" What do you do?

(I have no connection to or interest in BASF--I'm just wondering...)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/10/2016 08:31:30

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2016 : 10:31:34

It's never as black and white as that. There are usually multiple studies with conflicting results. We do thorough product stewardship reviews on all ingredients before investing in R&D with them to proactively avoid such issues. The BASF example that I was involved in was not related to environment or toxicology.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1803 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2016 : 18:31:26

BASF is basically a European company and as today the majority of environmental regulations stem from Europe (RoHS, Reach, etc., etc) my guess is that BASF management does not want to be the poster child -- in Europe -- of a bad environmental steward. That said, they should provide at least a "wink and a blink" to customers that the product is soon to be retired.

OT -- my experience over the years with power and sail vessels is that any boat that is not used frequently will have issues with slime/growth and that almost all current antifouling paints -- biocides, Irgarol, or traditional -- do a good job on barnacles and the hard stuff. Obviously, you have to maintain the bottom by cleaning and freshening the paint. Its when using the boat and slime/growth occur that everyone opines based on their local water, use, and expectations (racing vs cruising, single season vs multiple, etc) Every year I have to clean the transom on both Limerick and my powerboat -- the rest of the hull seems to fare pretty well. At season end their is some scum, etc., but nothing too onerous. Boating on western Long Island Sound I typically use West PCA or Pettit Trinidad which I believe are the same formula just with "house" brand vs "name" brand distinctions (and pricing). While they work for me in my local waters, each area of the country offers different marine life challenges so they may not be ideal for others in different locations. I have yet to go to the water based side, but each year those paints do better and better in the Practical Sailor tests so I expect soon I will convert.

Peter Bigelow
PO - C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 06/12/2016 18:36:50

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2016 : 20:05:31

quote:
Originally posted by bigelowp

...I typically use West PCA or Pettit Trinidad which I believe are the same formula just with "house" brand vs "name" brand distinctions (and pricing)...

Trinidad is a hard paint with high copper content--West PCA is an ablative with (relatively) medium copper content--different animals and not interchangeable on top of each other. I've found PCA Gold to be a good value, but have moved to Pettit's water-based Hydrocoat SR (Slime Resistance). However, the unavailability of the Irgarol anti-slime biocide raises questions about what Pettit is doing for slime/algae protection now. I don't know the answer at this point.

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3502 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2016 : 04:00:38

Dave touched on what I also mentioned in my above posting. For freshwater applications, you certainly can get an ablative/copolymer anti-fouling paint with a high copper content that may also work okay on controlling slime/algae growth but a high copper content paint with an anti-slime biocide would work much better in controlling slime/algae growth in freshwater. But there are anti-fouling paints with a medium copper content and a anti-slime biocide and they may work equally well in freshwater and with a cost savings since they have a bit less copper content. I do not know how well one anti-slime biocide works vs another anti-slime biocide but there are anti-fouling paints sold with anti-slime biocides other than with Irgarol anti-slime biocide. As I mentioned, Interlux Micron Extra uses a Biolux anti-slime biocide and seems to work okay on the upper Potomac River. Just that the Micron Extra has a relatively high copper content and is therefore fairly expensive. There are other paints that have less copper content and also sold with anti-slime biocides.

I stayed with Micron Extra. I repaint approximately every 3-4 years. I could go with one of the less expensive paints with just a medium copper content w/biocide and give them a try but when you consider painting is once every 3-4 years, the extra $50-$75 for the Micron Extra is a minor addl cost compared to the overall cost of hauling the boat out, pressure washing, repainting in the mtn yard and then travel lifting it back to the water. So, I just stayed with the Micron Extra.

Larry
'89 Robin's Nest#5820, Potomac River/Quantico, Va
http://catalina25.homestead.com/olarryr.html

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/13/2016 04:02:02

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1803 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2016 : 08:37:52

Originally posted by bigelowp

...I typically use West PCA or Pettit Trinidad which I believe are the same formula just with "house" brand vs "name" brand distinctions (and pricing)...

Trinidad for power; PCA for sail. While one is hard and the other ablative the formula is quite similar. We'll see how this year goes then determine if a change is in order . . . .

Peter Bigelow
PO - C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Edited by - bigelowp on 06/13/2016 08:39:34

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