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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

chainplates

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/14/2003 : 02:00:01

i have read some articles on the net, specifically practical sailor, and they state that catalinas are pretty cheaply made and late 70's models have issues with chainplates etc. is this true?

Steven de Filippis
77 catalina 25 - Gypsy

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 02:19:02

I don't know if there is an urgent problem with the chainplates, but Catalina Direct does sell a Chainplate Eyebolt Kit that they claim addresses three problem areas,

1)The new eyebolts are 1/2" instead of the original 3/8",

2)the new eyebolts have a flange welded on to prevent then from twisting loose on the deck and allowing water intrusion, and

3)The kit includes stainless steel backing plates to eliminate point loading.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 09:22:29

Steven,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... specifically Practical Sailor, and they state that Catalinas are pretty cheaply made and late 70's models have issues with chainplates etc.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Could you be more specific about what Practical Sailor said about the Catalina 25? I admire and subscribe to Practical Sailor, but I don't consider them infalable. And I do consider Catalinas to be well built for their target market.

On my 1979 Catalina 25, the original bow fitting (where the forestay attaches to the deck) seemed a bit on the wimpy side, but the rest of the chainplates looked substantial enough for the intended use of the boat. But being a thorough kind of guy, I installed the factory upgrade kits for the bow fitting (a.k.a. stem fitting), lower shroud chainplates, and spreader bases. I also replaced my standing rigging, upgrading to 316 alloy wire, Sta-Lock terminals, and open body bronze turnbuckles. I'm sure there are plenty of C-25 owners who haven't done all this, and their masts are still standing.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

On any older boat, it's probably a good idea to remove the chainplates for inspection, and to be particularly careful to prevent water leaking into the deck core or main bulkhead.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 14:11:28

Catalina 25s are not cheaply made. Many of us would like to have a boat with the strength and quality of a bluewater boat, such as an Island Packet, but (1) we can’t afford an Island Packet, (2) we don’t need such a sturdy boat just to sail and race on inland lakes and to cruise the coasts in fair weather, and (3) the Island Packet doesn’t provide the agility and lively performance that most of us expect in a racer-cruiser. The C-25 is exceptionally well designed and built for use as a lake sailer and coastal racer-cruiser. The mast is held up by stays of ample size and number, the hull is sturdy, and the boat has excellent sailing qualities. In later production years, some of the chainplates were re-designed and strengthened from the way they were on older boats. An upgrade kit is available for older boats. Unlike Catalina, most boat manufacturers don’t continue to study and re-design their products, and provide that kind of after-market service years after the boats were built. I still haven’t upgraded my 1981 boat, and, once or twice a year I heel her until her rudder pulls clear of the water, and the mast is still standing.

There are historic reasons why Catalina has not had the good reputation that it deserves. Throughout the 1970s and most of the 1980s, while Catalina was growing into one of the biggest production boat builders in the world, Catalina did absolutely no advertising. Competing manufacturers falsely accused Catalina of building cheap boats with pop rivets and chopper guns in an effort to protect their own piece of the boat market. (I’ve never seen a pop rivet in my Catalina that I didn’t put there, and the boat is constructed throughout with fiberglass matting. I’ve never seen signs of the use of a chopper gun, but it wouldn’t bother me if it is used where strength is not a significant issue.) For years, sailing magazines completely ignored Catalina because Catalina didn’t buy advertising. When Catalina bought out Morgan Yachts in about the late 1980s, Catalina started buying advertising for the first time, and, as a consequence they started getting their products mentioned favorably and featured in the sailing magazines. Ask almost any Catalina owner, and they will tell you of their satisfaction with their boat. Sometimes it takes awhile to live down a questionable reputation, even though it was never deserved in the first place. Some writers base their opinions on what they have heard through “the grapevine,” and not on their independent observations.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 17:05:28

Steve, I often wondered how Catalina got that bad rap. Thanks for the explanation.
I've heard Catalinas described as "the Chevrolet of the boating world". If so, I guess that makes Hunter the Kia and McGregor the Yugo...When we searched for a new boat after the demise of our C22, we looked at everything in the 25', $10,000 range - nothing, absolutely NOTHING, could be compared to the quality of the C25 (nor, as it turned out, its sailing abilities.)
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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triley
Captain

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USA
251 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 17:40:40

I agree with all that has been said about the quality of construction of the C25. Mine is way beyond the Hunters and McGregors that supposedly vie for the same market, and the amenities are better. Min e is an '87 sk, and I love her dearly. However, I am not mad about the swing keel arrangement, which takes water into the aft berth from the keel cable through hull when she is in reverse, and of course can break with disastrous consequences, I don't believe that the backstay vang does a very good job with sail control, and I got rid of my roller furling last year because the boat didn't point well with it in even moderate winds.

I think the C25 is overall a good boat, but it owuld have been nice if they had worked on reengineering some of the things that would make it better in these and other areas.

Picky,picky,picky,I guess.

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2003 : 23:26:41

Back to the chain plates- The problem was the eye bolt that passed though the deck was round with a couple washers. There was nothing to keep it from rotating. When they rotated, they broke the seal of whatever silicone, caulk, or gum you used to seal it up. Then you had a leak through the deck. I sealed and resealed my '80, but had to tarp it every Winter to keep the rain from dripping off the eye bolt where it entered the cabin. Last Summer I purchased and installed the chain plate refit kit from Catalina Direct. They're thicker, and they have a spot welded washer/ backer that has two screw holes. The unit can't rotate when the screws are installed. I had to redrill all the deck holes(the kit included a bit) and was happy to see blonde, solid core at every hole. No rot. This Winter the boat sat untarped. we've had no leaks at the chain plates.

Doug - #1913 Noeta

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2003 : 00:10:05

Thank you all. You made me feel better, i'm going to look into that upgrade from Catalina direct

Steven de Filippis
77 catalina 25 - Gypsy

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2003 : 08:15:22

Catalina upgraded the design and strength of their 25's significantly when they came out with the 89 models. They put so much into them that they couldn't afford to build them anymore, which is why only 223 89 wings were built, I'm not sure how many 90 models were built (same as the 89's), so they had to come out with the 250.

You know the old saying: They just don't build them like that anymore

We 25 owners are lucky to have a boat which is such a good value.

IMHO Practical sailor takes an elitist position on reviewing boats. If a boat is not a Class A rated blue water sailor, they tend to slam it. 16,000 C22 and 6,000 C25 owners can't all be wrong

So there

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2003 : 13:03:47

Compared to my Venture 23 (MacGregor), and the other new generation Mac's I've been on, the C25 is built like a tank.

Folks have crossed oceans with far less boat than a C25.
Really prudent to do so ? No.

But with some modifications and reinforcements I think C25's can be a pretty decent coastal cruiser that can handle moderately rough sea conditions for a limited time.

Several days in a storm ? You need more boat.

-- CB

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2003 : 13:13:18

People who are knowledgeable about boat design are beginning to show more appreciation for Catalina boats. The C-22 has been given credit for introducing thousands of people to sailing. I have recently seen discussions in books on boat design that comment favorably on the design and construction of C-27s and C-30s. The C-38, a Sparkman & Stevens design, was used for years in Admiral's Cup racing. Recently I have heard that the C-36 was designed to bluewater standards. Open-minded and knowledgeable people are finally realizing what Catalina owners have always known, that Catalinas are the best value in the industry.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 03/15/2003 : 13:26:05

If it weren't for the Catalina cruising and maybe even sailing would be out of touch for many. I suspect that a lot of Venture/ Mac owners drift away from sailing due to performance and quality issues. Catalina provides quality, performance , and cruising comfort at a reasonable price. I know Noeta isn't a Pacific Seacraft, but I also know I couldn't afford a Pacific Seacraft right now. In the end, I didn't pay all that much for a lot of boat.

Doug - #1913 Noeta

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2003 : 18:24:01

I have never heard of an actual failure involving the original 3/8" chainplate eye-bolts, but I installed the retrofit kit anyway. More important I think is the spreader sockets. If you have the old cast aluminum ones, they should be replaced the next time you have the mast down. I have heard of these failing, with catastrophic results. The retrofit spreader sockets are all stainless steel and don't cost much, about $50 I think. Cheap for a boat part, considering how important they are.

The Catalina 25 went through a long process of incremental design improvements, some of the most noticeable were:
1982: gas tank locker isolated from Lazarette, floor drains replaced with thru-transom drains, to-hulls replaced by thru-hulls.
1986: Flush mount windows, inboard diesel first offered, Wing keel first offered. Transom cut-out and better traveller. Plexiglass foredeck hatch offered.
1988: Swing keel no longer offered, so cabin floor lowered 4", giving 6' of headroom without having to raise the pop-top.

Unfortunately, as Frank says, by 1990 the Catalina 25 was costing so much to build that the last few delivered were priced at around $40,000, more than most people would pay for a trailerable sailboat, and a recession was building that peaked in '91/'92.

I don't know...I have looked at a few C-250's, and while they are undeniably faster than the C-25 that they replaced, they seem MUCH smaller inside the cabin, especially the water ballast model. I had an '86 C-22 SK for a couple of years and sold it to buy "Quiet Time". That C-22 was just too cramped inside for my 6'-2", and the C-250 seems only slightly larger, and lacks the full-length pop-top of the C-22 and C-25.

If a future design revision is made to the C-250 to give it a real pop-top with more head room, and a useable V-berth, I might reconsider, but for now, nothing comes close to the value of an '88-'90 C-25WK if you can find one.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

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