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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Barber Haul

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Captain Max
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/31/2017 : 17:13:29

Has anyone put a barber haul on their cat 25? Want to sheet my 150 genoa in to point a little better. Where did you lead it to?

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2017 : 18:37:47

Never tried it, but I'm not sure it would work on a C25. The limiting factor is the location of the upper shroud and the length of the spreaders, which will prevent sheeting the jib in beyond them. As I recall, when racing closehauled I trimmed in the jib until it was about 3-5" from the spreader tip, depending on the windspeed and depending somewhat on where I positioned the genoa car. IIRC, it was touching, or almost touching the shroud.

Moreover, a 155 is a light air sail, and it's designed to have some fullness to develop it's optimum power. Over-trimming it chokes the power out of it. I tried over-trimming mine to see if it would point better, and it depowered the genoa and the boat lost speed. As boat speed increases, the efficiency of the keel increases, and that aids pointing ability. Depowering the genoa degrades pointing.

Before you drill holes and attach hardware, study the architecture of the boat with the genoa trimmed to closehauled, and consider whether it's practicable.

On some later versions of the C25, Catalina moved the genoa track inboard a little, but I think they also moved the shrouds inboard a bit, and I'd guess they shortened the spreaders a bit.

Nevertheless, my C25 was a 1981 TR/FK, and I often raced it against J24s, and they could neither out-point it nor out-foot it to windward, so the boat can point well.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Captain Max
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2017 : 20:04:00

Good points, however, i am flying a furling150. Do not consider it a light wind sail as it often is used in up to 20kts. The track on my 84 is generally considered to be further out than you want when close hauled. My genoa is usually only about an inch off the spreader when on a beat. I have one really accomplished racer tell me to set jib cars as much as a foot behind the winches which brings the sheet inward. Only problem with that is there is a fair amount of rub on the sheet. Therefore I'm thinking of the barber haul.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

Edited by - Captain Max on 07/31/2017 20:07:08

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2017 : 21:25:11

I can't imagine why one would ever set the genoa cars one foot aft of the winches. In fact, on the later models the genoa tracks don't even extend aft of the winches. Moving the cars aft in strong winds will depower the genoa, flattening the foot while letting air spill out of the top of the sail, but they don't have to be moved that far aft even for that purpose. I raced in 6 C25 national regattas and never knew a C25 racer who set his cars that far aft for his genoa, nor did any of them use a barber hauler.

What is your goal? Do you want to make your boat race competitive? Whether you're a racer or cruiser, a barber hauler won't have any significant effect on the boat's pointing. If you want to race competitively, the boat will never really be competitive with a roller furling jib. A furling jib is designed for cruising. It has a cutaway foot, so it has considerably less sail area than a deck sweeping racing jib. You can have fun as a casual racer, but you won't be competitive against boats that are rigged to race. The sails are a sailboat's "engine." Having less sail area is akin to having a smaller engine. If your goal is to race competitively, then you'll need a deck sweeping racing jib. It can be raised in the slot of your furler, and the tack would need to be attached to the deck somewhere.

If you'll scrub the boat's bottom before a race, I can guarantee you that a clean bottom will do more to improve pointing ability than a barber hauler, even if it is practicable at all. A clean bottom will increase your boatspeed, and boatspeed increases pointing. One of the boats I'm currently crewing on is a 45 footer with 7' draft and a roller furling jib and a mainsail with in-mast furling. The owner scrubs her bottom before races, and her clean bottom makes her competitive, but she'll never be a consistent winner in round-the-buoy races with her furling sails. Nevertheless, we still have fun racing her each week.

It sounds like you're getting dubious advice from your friend. Seek the opinions of others before you drill any holes.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Captain Max
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2017 : 04:55:43

Good points again. The comment about clean bottom is of course basic to good speed. Just did mine yesterday! And of course a furler is never going to point as well or have the sail area as a hanked on. Im a cruiser first but do local regattas and beer can races where I've been fairly competitive. (Largely due to recent bottom job #128522;) Appreciate your comments.

Captain Max
"Wyvern"
84 Cat 25 FK
Bayview Marina
Dallas Tx Area

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2017 : 11:29:00

When I started sailing I was a Barber so I named my first Keel Boat Barber Hauler, (note how much she looks like a C 25 with the head removed) everybody like that. I learned that the Barber bros used them to OPEN the slot rather than close it. A big sail backwinding a main does not point better, you are pointing with your main and driving with the genny on a C25. If you are running some 100% blade then getting it "in" would help.

Glastron Spirit 23

Frank Hopper

HerdOfTurtles
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2017 : 12:18:20

What Pastmember said echoes my thoughts exactly.

I race on someone else's boats Wednesdays. Skipper has a 155 genny and likes to barber haul it mainly I think because he gets bored/anxious and has to be doing something.

I cringe every time he brings it out. You can feel the boat slow down.

The backwinding causes a bubble to form on the luff of the main. He calls it a speed bump. I think that's exactly what it does, slow you down.

I also think if you were running a 100% jib barber hauling could be useful.

1978 Standard Rig
Fin Keel
L-Dinette

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2017 : 13:25:22

quote:
Originally posted by HerdOfTurtles

The backwinding causes a bubble to form on the luff of the main. He calls it a speed bump. I think that's exactly what it does, slow you down.

I also think if you were running a 100% jib barber hauling could be useful.

Sailing closehauled with a "bubble" in the mainsail is a technique that is commonly used by racers. When the wind pipes up and the boat becomes overpowered, the most "seamanlike" thing to do is to reef the mainsail, but racers don't like to tuck in a reef during a race because it takes time and effort.

As Frank says, a C25 is driven mostly by the genoa. In strong winds, the mainsail doesn't provide much forward drive. It's main purpose is to help point the boat to windward. For that reason, the mainsail is mostly responsible for excess heeling. That's why you reef the mainsail when the boat is heeling excessively.

When you trim a big, overlapping sail in close to the mainsail in strong winds, the slot is reduced so much that the volume of wind can't get through the slot. Reefing the mainsail flattens it and opens the slot between the mainsail and the genoa.

Instead of reefing the mainsail, many racers sail with a bubble in the mainsail. That technique is called a "fisherman's reef." In essence, it is simply trimming the genoa in tight to sail closehauled as fast and as close to the wind as possible, and ignoring the fact that a large part of the mainsail's area is luffing.

Sailing with a bubble in the mainsail when the boat is overpowered, by itself, shouldn't cause the boat to slow down, but if the genoa is depowered by trimming it too flat, the boat won't have enough power to drive through the choppy waves, and that will slow it down.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

HerdOfTurtles
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2017 : 13:36:04

Steve, agree 100%.

I definitely sail with a bubble at the luff of the main when overpowered. I don't get the bubble from barber hauling, I get it from easing the main sheet out.

1978 Standard Rig
Fin Keel
L-Dinette

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2017 : 16:45:36

It depends where the buble is. Of course I want the luff of the main to have the "speed bubble" but when a genny moves that bubble back it is time to open the slot. A clean leach is more important than a clean luff on a main. "That Chord really pulled the main together man".

Frank Hopper

Edited by - pastmember on 08/01/2017 16:51:30

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.