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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Fractional rig on Catalina 25

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cariad2
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/22/2021 : 18:14:28

I am currently looking to buy this Catalina 25 which has a fractional rig and I can�t find any information on this model being produced by Catalina Yachts. I suspect it was modified sometime in its earlier life perhaps with a replacement mast perhaps.
My question is do any members of the forum have knowledge or experience of its performance as a fractional rig. If the fore triangle is reduced in size but the mainsail appears as normal does the vessel become unbalanced perhaps with a greater tendency to roundup for example. This model has a fixed keel and was built around 1990

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2021 : 19:05:15

Converting a masthead to a fractional rig usually requires moving the mast tabernacle forward in order to preserve helm balance. The result is to create a smaller foretriangle. Depending on how far you have to move the mast, you might have to replace the boom with a longer boom. When you move the mast, you'll surely need to move the chainplates. The original mast is supported by the compression post, and some modification should be made to support the mast at the new location.

That modification is possible, but it involves changing the basic architecture of the boat, and that's beyond the expertise of most DIYers, although I'm sure there are some who think otherwise. If it isn't done right, you'll have a boat that is slow and handles badly.

Changing it to a fractional rig without having a bigger mainsail negates one of the benefits of a fractional rig. A masthead rig has a big jib and a small mainsail. The jib is the primary driving sail. A fractional rig should have a small jib and a much bigger mainsail. The fractional rig's mainsail is the primary driving sail. If this boat has a smaller jib and the original size C25 mainsail, the power of the jib has been reduced without increasing the size of the mainsail. That's a reduction in the power of the rig.

That modification drastically reduces the marketability and value of the boat. Many people wouldn't want it at any price. Some would buy it for a price well below a comparable stock boat. My advice is walk away. From what you say, it doesn't sound like the alteration was done well.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/22/2021 19:17:38

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2021 : 19:29:51

IMHO -- I would walk away from that boat. There are many good C25's on the market. Butler knew what he was doing when designing our boats. They sail well as a masthead rig. Anyone who plays around with such modifications on a boat like these is messing up a good thing. You will find many excellent examples of our boats on the used market, go with a proven design.

However, might it have been a Capri 25 or Capri 26? I believe they were all masthead but could be wrong.

Peter Bigelow
C-25 TR/FK #2092 Limerick
Rowayton, Ct
Port Captain: Rowayton/Norwalk/Darien CT

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2021 : 19:37:52

The Capri 25 and Capri 26 were both masthead rigs. The Catalina 25 was never factory-built in a fractional rig version.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2021 : 17:50:44

One of the important advantages to a fractional rig, as I understand it, it to be able to create some fore-&-aft curvature in the mast, adjusting the fullness of the main. The Catalina 25 has foreward and aft lower shrouds that accomplish the same thing only better. Dual lowers is unusual in boats this size, especially in the population of boats that was produced during that era, largely for family enjoyment. It's one of the features I consider important about the Cat 25. After acquiring mine, with an old, stretched-out mainsail, I was able to achieve a substantial improvement in sail shape by adjusting the lowers. A fractional rig isn't necessary for this.

Also, it's my understanding that fractional rig boats often use running backstays (probably due, at least in part, to the larger main that Steve described above). That's not a complication I'd want to introduce (ask the NYYC Americas Cup team about that right now).

I'd echo what Peter said. Leave that one alone.

The trouble with a destination - any destination, really - is that it interrupts The Journey.

Lee Panza
SR/SK #2134
San Francisco Bay
(Brisbane, CA)

cariad2
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2021 : 19:24:31

Thank you gentlemen for your informative response.
I visited the boat yesterday because I was curious about its history and to see if the mast had been moved/reduced with the fractional rig changes.

Mast was in the original designed position as were the shroud change plates. I measured the mainsail luff at 908mm 358� . The boom length was 330mm and foot of sail was317mm 125�. So the question is if we can assume the original mast size or has it been altered to achieve balance in sailing performance.

I have as per your advice walked away from it also because of its poor maintenance condition

Peter Vincent

cariad2
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2021 : 19:28:04

Swept back spreaders alleviate the need for running back stays

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2021 : 19:48:09

The cross-section of the mast of a masthead rig is thicker and sturdier than the fractional rig mast. The former can be bent a little to change the shape of the mainsail, but the more spindly fractional rig mast can be bent more. The masthead rig is generally considered sturdier than a fractional rig, and thus more suitable for sailing in rough conditions.

A fractional rig is easier to sail shorthanded. When the wind pipes up, you need to reef the masthead rig's mainsail and change to a smaller jib. With a fractional rig, you can continue using the much smaller jib much longer before having to change down. Because the mainsail is the principal driving sail, you can depower the mainsail first by flattening the mainsail. Next, easing the traveler to leeward greatly depowers the sail. If the wind becomes overpowering, then you must reef the mainsail. Because the fractional jib is often not overlapping, the wind can become very strong before you'll have to reduce the size of the jib. In other words, you can depower a fractional rig much easier than a masthead rig.

If you compare the effort expended in depowering the masthead rig with the effort expended in depowering the fractional rig, the fractional rig will be much, much easier.

If I ever buy another boat, it'll have a fractional rig, but both my present boats have masthead rigs.

Based on your last post, the boat hasn't really been changed to a fractional rig. It is still rigged as a masthead boat, but it has a fractional rig mast. The boat's basic architecture hasn't been changed. Only the mast has been changed.

My advice is the same. Personally, I couldn't trust that the mast would stand up to big winds and a knockdown.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2021 : 22:20:05

Welcome to the community! The mainsail luff length you measured is about 2' longer than that of the the C-25 tall rig, and the foot is about 10" longer. It's a substantially bigger mainsail and almost certainly a different, taller mast. (The tall rig boom is already pretty low.) That would compensate somewhat for the smaller jib, although with that mast, the jib could be about the same as stock. As you suspected, the result was likely increased weather helm, class illegal for racing, non-standard for handicapping, and a considerably more tender boat.

Why? (Yup--I'd walk, too.)

Your metric measurements (translated for the USA audience) lead me to ask, where are you?

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/23/2021 22:23:04

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2021 : 14:09:37

I forgot to mention another benefit of a fractional rig. They commonly fly a non-overlapping jib that doesn't get snagged on the rigging when you tack, and the jibsheets are much shorter than those on a big 150 genoa. Consequently, you don't have many yards of sheet to tail every time you tack. That enables you to tack the jib over to the new closehauled position almost instantly and with almost no winch grinding.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

cariad2
Deckhand

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6 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2021 : 15:27:50

I�m in Australia and regularly sail on Sydney Harbour. Hence the metric dimensions. Haven�t used imperial measurements since I left UK 40 years ago.
There are very few Catalina 25�s here but there is a 22 that sails from my club and performs well. The only 25 that ever sailed with us sank in the middle of a race. Short swell in the harbour at the time, 2 blokes on the foredeck and the hatch wide open. Not a good advert for the Catalina

cariad2
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 01/25/2021 : 15:36:24

A wave came over, went down the hatch and the boat sank immediately leaving the very confused yachties floating with the flotsam

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2021 : 16:06:53

quote:
Originally posted by cariad2

The only 25 that ever sailed with us sank in the middle of a race. Short swell in the harbour at the time, 2 blokes on the foredeck and the hatch wide open. Not a good advert for the Catalina

The poor seamanship of the two blokes doesn't reflect badly on Catalina. It probably wouldn't have sunk if they had closed the hatch.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

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