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Advice needed: Haul out and bottom job is eminent!

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luckystar
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Initially Posted - 04/18/2003 : 18:32:57

Lord knows we've covered this a million times. I've searched and searched the archives, but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for and most of the time the DB times out and I see nothing. So, I thought I'd ask:

Does anyone have any last minute, 11th hour tips or advice for redoing the bottom of a Swing Keel cat25?

I'm going to pressure wash, scrape/sand, replace cable, turning ball, keel eyebolt, install zincs and casing bolts. I do not have the resources to drop the keel out so I'm going to do what I can for now. I'm going to try to find that stuff that neutralizes the rust (anyone know what it's called? and where to get?) Then I'll be painting 4 coats (total) of a waterbased copolymer antifouling.
I'm also installing two two inch transducers in the front of the hull, probably under the v-berth, seems to be enough access there. I'll also be doing some repair to the back of the rudder that's lightly crazing and fix all those little knicks from over the years on the top sides.

I've got one whole week to do this, can it be done? The previous bottom job was ten years ago and most of it is gone. I've felt for blisters while swimming and inspected closely with dive light while scuba diving a couple of years ago only to see minor, here and there bumps, nothing bigger than half a dime. So I think I'm going to ignore for this haul out and plan a major refinish in a couple of years.

Anyway, if anyone out there has something that they learned, didn't account for, happened while they were under their swinger or good advice for me, please, please share! Thanks.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

Edited by - luckystar on 04/18/2003 18:33:36

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2003 : 21:24:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Does anyone have any last minute, 11th hour tips or advice for redoing the bottom of a Swing Keel cat25?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yeah, I've got some advice. If you're a drinker, don't stop...if you're not, start! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Have Fun! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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NuNees
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USA
125 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2003 : 22:31:58

Patrick,
take Don's advice...I'd recomend a cheap single maalt scotch...it'll keep you going.
Seriously, you've got your work cut out for you.
First, while the bottom is still wet, blow as much junk off the bottom as you can. I did and it was hard to get the all of it. My trailer has rollers, which make it tough to get at a lot of spots.
I replaced my cable, hose and turning ball. One tip I saw earlier was to have someone hold the new cable end while a second person cranks up the cable...good idea! I wish I had seem that BEFORE I did mine. I'll have to wait till Fall haulout. and redo. The old cable had a ratty, frayed end and jammed in the turning ball. I wound up trimming the wiress so they would clear the ball. I should have taken the hose and ball off to start with. It would have been easier. To get the keel to drop enough to clear the bottom, I dropped the center cross menber of the trailer, after supporting the keel on a bottle jack. Depends on your trailer, what you will need to do. maybe you'll have it in a sling.
Rust Converter I used some years back while resurecting a couple of older cars, is named 'EXTEND'. I remember getting it at either an auto parts or hardware. I have the same problem and I plan to use it next Fall when I redo the bottom. I haven't bought any lately and haven't noticed it at the new high volumn hardware stores. (I wasn't looking, either.)
I reworked my rubber here at home. Removed the old anti-fouling. Applied fiber glass resin over the whole underwater section. patched the upper section with resin and and fabric (where needed). Used TopSide paint on the upper section and new anti-fouling on the under water section. Re-sized the pintel and tiller attaching holes. It looked water tight. It felt strong.
I did not do transducers...I have a depth transducer I am going to try to get to tramsmit as an In-Hull.
By the way, I really liked your pictures. I have a couple of questions...when you get a minute.
Where is your boat slipped?
The carpeting looks great, did you bind the edges?
I can't see a break at the floor to the Potty area, Is that just the optics?
Did you shorten the table?
Did you abandon the cushions in the quarter berth? Looks like a good idea!
Good Luck with Lucky Star...wish I could help.

Bill Jaworowski
MoodBeams C25 SR/SK #4953 Lake Carlyle, IL

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2003 : 22:36:48

If you can wire brush or otherwise get the loose rust off the keel, I wouldn't just put antifouling on it. IMHO, you'e be much better off painting the keel with a couple of coats of Rustoleum type paint, or Hammerite (it's holding up on my freshwater boat), then two coats of antifouling.....

Turning ball and cable? figure 2 hours or so...with any luck at all. No biggie, generally. Don't sweat the little blisters. A gallon will do my boat's hull twice with antifouling with 3 at the waterline, front edge of bow and front of rudder. Good luck. I am just getting good and started this time myself, but I am going down to gelcoat.....

Gary B.

Encore! #685 SK/SR

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2003 : 13:14:30

Thanks, so far, guys!

Bill: the boat is slipped at a corp of engineers lake called DeGray in Arkadelphia, Arkansas (about 30min from Hot Springs National Park). I cut the carpet and had it bound (about $2 ft., and well worth it.) The original carpet was one continuous piece and did not have a break or cut at the head. With a little finesse you can get the right angles in there to drop down and follow the floor there. I do not have the carpet snapped or velcroed b/c it has never slipped on me, even on a lot of heel. I didn't shorten the table, but hope someday to do what someone in tech tips did to rebuild, shorten, hinge it from the bulk head and put new formica that matches the rest. It's way down on the list. Last year, while redoing the interior cushions, I decided to get rid of the aft berth. No one ever seemed to sleep back there and it usually got used for storage. So I carpeted the area there and got some rubbermaid containers to store clothing, tools/parts, towels etc. and my thermoelectric cooler. It's been wonderful to have that much storage aboard, I find that a 4 day stay doesn't feel so confining anymore and I don't have to constantly move "this" so I can sit "there" and vice versa!

Thanks Gary for the tip on painting with rustoleum or such. I think I'll do it anyway, but I won't be able to get up inside the trunk as well as I'd like, but I'll try to swab as much up there as I can. Once she's out of the water, I can decide how to go about doing that.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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NuNees
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Response Posted - 04/19/2003 : 19:05:55

Patrick,
Thanks for the carpet tips...I found 'EXTEND' at Home Depot today, in an aerosol. Turns the rust black and harden like an primer. It does need to be covered with something, like a good barrier coat, though. Some years ago it was available as both aerosola nd brushable liquid, it may still be. ...I also found a product called 'Rust Concverter' by Kleen-Strip at the local 'Auto Parts' chain store. (It is the chair out of Memphis.)
So, good luck with your project...sounds like a busy week...Don't forget Don Luciers suggesttion...

Bill Jaworowski
Moonbeams C25 SR/SK #4953 Lake Carlyle, IL

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luckystar
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236 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2003 : 00:15:57

Yes, Don, Thanks, that is the best advice of all. I'll be picking up those libations on the way down to the boat!!! One of the things that the marina requires is you have to set up a curtain of plastic all the way around the entire boat, so I guess if the forecast says rain, I can still be under there slaving away. I can't wait til it's done, I'm sure I"ll be really happy that I've gone through this, if not only for having my new speed and depth transducers installed.

If anyone else has any more tips, I'm still eager to here them. Thanks!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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Mark Loyacano
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Response Posted - 04/20/2003 : 08:54:10

Several years ago I cleaned a very neglected, rusted swing keel with wire brushes and sand paper. Then I applied "extend" where needed and applied several barrier coats of Interlux 2000.
It is still holding up today without any rusting except where there is evidence of scraping (where we ground on the lake bottom) and a little spot that was not treated.

This is also a good time to obtain a new style keel lifting bracket and cable(and winch if needed)from Catalina.

Good luck.

Mark L.
Cat 25 SR/SK #549

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luckystar
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Response Posted - 04/22/2003 : 01:39:25

Here's a question, after using the phosphoric acid rust converter, and wire brushing/grinding the iron keel, can I use something like spray on rustoleum primer to "seal" the keel well enough? And will my water-based copolymer antifouling paint adhere to it? or would this be a mistake? I have limited funds and limited time to order product, what else would work to help coat the iron keel like a barrier coat, but something I can get locally that is cheaper? I bought a can of rustoleum clean metal primer for use on bare, painted or lightly rusted metals. that's what is say on the can. Help. Thanks!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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MattL
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/22/2003 : 02:33:23

I have been taking an autobody class at the local JC. The first primer coat is an acid etching layer. This is thin and light sensitive so it needs to be covered. The next coat is usually a building primer. This is a thick layer that can be sanded to fairness. Lastly is the color. I think the acid layer is mostly to get rid of and reduce further rusting. Everyone in the class sprays on primer from a rattle can between class days to prevent rusting. The rattle can stuff is just sanded off when they get back to class and begin the fairing process again. No one has been working on boats, but I think the method looks sound. I have been working on a fiberglass body so it is a moot point with me.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/23/2003 : 12:16:44

Mark or others,

How many coats of Interlux 2000 (barrier coat) can you get out of one gallon, when you roll it on, and how many did you put on your boat? (At the last minute, I am thinking about sanding my boat down to the gel coat and putting a barrier coat on it before I apply this year's bottom paint.)

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/24/2003 : 11:43:09

Patrick,
Where I performed a recent bottom job there was a large tree next to where the bat was parked. I tied a line and winched the boat toward the tree, This allowed me to drop all three pads on one side so I would not have to continually raise and lower the pads. For the other side I used my truck as an anchor for the line. Saved a little time!,
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK <img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/forum1.gif" border=0>

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svmoxie
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Response Posted - 04/24/2003 : 12:21:29

Steve,

I used almost two full gallons of 2000 barrier coat. That gave me 6 coats on every surface, hull, full keel trunk and the keel itself. I went up to the bottom of the boot strip and masked of with 2" 3M blue tape.

What you are looking for is at least 10 mils of thickness rather than the actual number of coats, although 5 normal coats will usually be the 10 mils required.

Use a thin nap roller that is resistant to epoxy. The other "difficulty" with the application is that it is very temperature dependent and the top coating times are very specific. I applied on a weekend with NO rain forecasted, about 80 degrees as the high for the day. Each coat took about an hour to apply and then three hours before the next coat could go on. I started the second coat after about 2 1/2 hours from the end of the previous coat working from the port bow around to the starboard bow and tried to mix only enough for a single coat, because of the pot life. (Keep the mixed paint out of the sun and it a cool area!) I got four coats on the first day. The second day I put on two more and then one coat of Micron extra. (You have a longer window to apply more 2000 than your bottom paint.) The Micron Extra can be out of the water indefinitely and is a relatively hard ablative paint, perfect for the trailer. The following coats of Micron Extra can be applied in a much more leisurely fashion. If you have a helper who can tip behind you on the last two or three coats of 2000 you will end up with a pretty smooth and hard finish on which to apply the bottom paint. If you don't tip as you roll you will end up with a fine stipple texture. Move quickly and don't overwork it, but get any runs brushed out because you do NOT want to try to sand this stuff! Goggles are a must if you have a keel trunk to deal with, otherwise some old clothes and some music make it almost an enjoyable job. Almost!

Good luck!

Clif Thompson
Treasurer C-25/250 National Association.
svMoxie '81 25 sk

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/24/2003 : 12:41:37

Thanks for the information. Just one question: <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you have a helper who can tip behind you on the last two or three coats of 2000 you will end up with a pretty smooth and hard finish on which to apply the bottom paint. If you don't tip as you roll you will end up with a fine stipple texture. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> What do you mean "tip," and how do you do it?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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OJ
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Response Posted - 04/24/2003 : 13:23:44

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What do you mean "tip," and how do you do it?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Someone follows behind you as you're rolling on the 2000E with paint brush and brushes the paint - eliminating the stippling left by the roller.
I concur from personal experience - you do not want to sand this product to make it smooth.
You do, however, have to apply each coat thick enough to get the "shingles" to lay down to form the waterproof barrier.
Good luck

Edited by - OJ on 04/25/2003 11:49:59

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luckystar
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Response Posted - 04/24/2003 : 19:49:50

Thanks once again to everyone who responded. I've got one more shopping trip to pick up sandpaper, plastic sheeting (for the marina's OSHA requirements) and various other things, then I'm at the lake to await my "crew" for the haul out. I think I've rounded up some folks to help attach the aforementioned "curtain" and get the boat ready for the next few days of scraping and sanding. Then it's new rudder gudgeons, keel maintenance and transducer installations. Then two to four coats of paint. Then hopefully SPLASH!

Wish me luck!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 08:40:05

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Mark or others,

How many coats of Interlux 2000 (barrier coat) can you get out of one gallon, when you roll it on, and how many did you put on your boat? (At the last minute, I am thinking about sanding my boat down to the gel coat and putting a barrier coat on it before I apply this year's bottom paint.)

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Steve - your gonna regret you ever read this thread...I would start drinking heavily prior to pulling out the orbital sanders

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 09:34:51

Duane - I already regret it. I have the pointy end of the boat scraped, but that's the easy part. From here on, it gets really tough. This year the keel also needs some serious re-fairing. The whole thing is starting to get scarey. But, somehow it will get done. It always does.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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svmoxie
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 09:48:15

Steve,

OJ pretty much said it, Tipping is using a DRY paint brush to lightly brush over the wet paint just after you apply it with the roller. You just use the tip of the brush (hence the name) to smooth the stipple left behind by the roller. You can do this by yourself but it is a lot easier and faster if you have a helper.

Good luck

Clif Thompson
Treasurer C-25/250 National Association.
svMoxie '81 25 sk

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 12:11:56

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Duane - I already regret it. I have the pointy end of the boat scraped, but that's the easy part. From here on, it gets really tough.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yep, I had 5 or 6 appointments with a chiropractor after I completed OJ's bottom. Maybe this will make you feel better Steve - I stopped counting after I repaired the 300th blister.
BTW, some of us placed a mechanics dolley on top of a recycling bin which moves you closer to the bottom of the boat (in certain areas) so you don't have to reach, crouch or bend so much. This also allows you to bend your arms enough so you can put some leverage/pressure on the tool you're using.
We'll be thinking of you while the rest of us are soaking up some sun and rum <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> .

Edited by - OJ on 04/25/2003 12:22:45

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John Mason
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Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 13:56:47

I'm redoing the bottom of my boat also. Scraping it down to the gelcoat and then sand, epoxy, and bottom paint. Shoulda been in the water three weeks ago. Tonight I will finally finish the SCRAPING. Been at it for over two weeks.

You're right Steve, the pointy end is just the beginning.

I must be a glutton for punishment. After trying a sander, a sanding disk in a drill motor, a cabinet scraper, chemicals, and a 1" putty knife, I settled on a 1 1/4" wood chisel as the best (ha) way to remove the old bottom paint (about 5-6 layers).

I will say it's cheaper than joining a health club and I still get a great workout.<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/25/2003 : 14:38:33

shouldn't have to remind you, but for your own safety -

Remember the Goggles, and respirators.

Also - one of those white mokey suits and a ballcap work great too.

I was picking the crap out of my ears for about a week.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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luckystar
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236 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2003 : 13:35:22

Okay, I may not be doing the most thorough job of it but I'm fairly happy with the progress. The good thing is the boat really didn't have much bottom paint left. the bad thing is there were some monster blisters. I popped those and used a grinder to find good material. As I was sanding the rest of the "Bumps" were discovered and for my own sanity's sake, quickly forgotten. As I said, I'm happy with my four days work so far. I've installed the new lower gudgeon (meaty new construction too!) by drilling out the old screws that sheared off in the transom (ugh!), ground away the glassing on the inside and put a new backing plate and washers with nylok nuts. I finished sanding this morning, and decided after being coated in red dust for two days (yes I had respirator, goggles and tyvek suit) to come home for a good nights rest. Back at it tomorrow using fiberglass bondo to fill blister holes and prime the keel with rustoleum. Then if the weather permits, I'll be taping off thursday to start painting. The keel maintenance is still on the list and will get done next week. I decided not to try to do all of this in one week.

The worst thing is that I found a 4 inch crack at the forward end of the keel trunk and am going to have to figure out the best way to repair. I've already ground the gelcoat down there and into the crack until it stopped. It doesn't look like it's very deep so I hope that injecting some epoxy in the crack and bondo the exterior will be sufficient. Anyone have any advice??

I've learned this: bottom jobs must be what hell is like!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2003 : 21:59:39

Just a suggestion: where the keel trunk. or other structural items are concerned, I urge you to use epoxy products rather than polyester (bondo, etc), the epoxy being much stronger, which (I guess) is why it costs more. Putting a bit of glass tape, or small pieces of mat, or both, is not that hard to do. I suggest purchase of Gougeon bros. booklet on epoxy use, or the system three, both are very informative and make repairs pretty simple , just follow their advice, godspeed and fair winds, ron srsk #2343 Orion SW FL

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/29/2003 : 22:13:56

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I've learned this: bottom jobs must be what hell is like!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No...bottom jobs are worse!

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Shawn
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/03/2003 : 01:05:13

I also have the crack in my keel where it meets the fiberglass. I was told that it occurs because the fiberglass and the iron keel move(expand and contract) at different rates in temperature variations. I first used a marine putty/epoxy(marine tex knock off) and the crack showed up again. Next haul out I ground it out and used West System epoxy to fill it. The crack reappeared. Next time I will grind it out and try laying fiberglass mat and resin in and building it back out to fair. I can't answer your question on how to make the repair, but don't try the putty or the epoxy. On Silmarillion the crack doesn't go very deep, and every time I check my keel bolts they look fine., So I don't panic over it, but is on my list for every haul out. Please list any repairsyou have success with on the site.
Good luck, Shawn
1980 tr/fk #1960

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.