Association Forum - STORM DAMAGE

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

STORM DAMAGE

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Tray
Navigator

Member Avatar

Namibia
224 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/27/2003 : 08:38:15

We had a nasty storm here Friday. During which, the big motor yacht next to my boat had it's bow line snap. I wasn't there for it, but the owner told me the boat swung around and smashed into my outboard. The Honda 8 snapped off at the transom mount and fell into the river.<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> The guy quickly rescued it and took it next door to the engine shop where it was dunked in a tank of fresh water and flushed. Late yesterday the shop got it to run.

The neighbor filed a claim with his Boat U.S. insurance and gave me the number. He and the engine shop seem to think the engine will be just fine once they get the transom mount replaced, but I'm concerned about the long term effects of the exposure to salt water, especially the alternator. I bought the engine brand new in 2001, and it has been extremely dependable. I don't want that to change. Boat U.S. does not want to replace the engine if it will run again. What is everyone else's opinion? Should I push for a new engine, or accept the word of the engine mechanic and Boat U.S. that this engine will be fine?

Luckily there is no other damage to my boat, but all my sailing plans for the immediate future are on hold. I hope that we'll be able to make the May 10th offshore race here in Fernandina. Any advice for a quick resolution to this mess would also be much appreciated.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 08:47:07

Hi Tray,

I'm sorry to here of the accident.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to get an opinion from HONDA. Maybe they could shed some light on long term problems to help support your case.

Good luck,

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 09:59:10

Alternator, starter motor, ignition module, all wire connections, and (hate to say) all of the non-stainless steel connectors--all are likely to deteriorate over time. I had a cooling hose pop off a fitting inside the cowling of our older Honda, and despite major flushing with a hose, and then liberal applications of spray lubrication, things went slowly downhill from there. First, the coil went; next the carb had some problems; then some screws started to rust... I got a new one--on my dime.

The tank may be a better way to flush, but salt has a way of getting into things that still water won't get it out of...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 10:30:07

You don't say what steps the repair shop has taken to restore your motor. If they haven't clearly explained to you what they did, you should get an itemized statement showing what they have done, and then talk to the mechanic who did the work and ask him questions. Did they just dunk it in fresh water, let it drip-dry, change the oil and pull the starter rope? Have they checked the output of the alternator? Did they rebuild the carburetor? Did they replace any electrical components? Did they dismantle, clean and re-lubricate the alternator? (If the lubrication inside the alternator was washed away and not replaced, the alternator will wear out early, and that would be a major expense.) Did they re-lubricate the parts where the engine rotates and tilts? Did they re-lubricate the throttle linkage? When the motor was dunked, at least some of that lubrication was probably washed away. If they didn't do some of those things, why didn't they.

When an automobile gets immersed in a flood, the insurance companies don't try to clean it up and leave it at that. They declare the car a total loss. Their reasoning is that, after a car has been dunked, salt, dirt and moisture gets into everything, and you can't get it all out. The car might run o.k. for awhile, but electrical connections and components corrode and fail and the chassis rusts out. You can't clean up a car enough to ensure that it won't be a problem in the future.

I would ask the repairman if he can assure you that the motor won't cause you problems in the future if these steps aren't taken. If he equivocates, or "doesn't know," then tell the insurer that you shouldn't have to bear that risk, because the incident wasn't your fault. Your boat was properly secured. You can't be unreasonable, but I would want some assurance of no future problems. You could ask the insurer to guarantee against any future problems in the next three years. If they won't, then that is an admission by them that your damage is not adequately compensated. You shouldn't have to bear the risk of future problems. They should provide you some written assurance that you are protected against such future problems.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 10:41:13

Tray,

Sorry to hear of your predicament.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The Honda 8 snapped off at the transom mount...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

How did the motor snap off the transom? Did you have a tether installed?

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da06b3127cce96af45ce0d3e0000001610" border=0>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 11:24:41

Hi Don,
Nice pic of your boat. Is that a 250? Did the stern rail seats come standard? Have you heard of anyone retrofitting them to an 89 25 wk? It would be a cool thing to have.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 11:27:07

In the case of the engine dunking, have you consulted an attorney? It seems like sometimes a letter from one will get the attention of an insurance company like nothing else.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 12:10:32

I'd push for a new engine. Short of a new engine tell them you want the electrical replaced. Keep in mind that the insurance likely doesn't owe you for a new engine, but it's worth a shot.

Doug - #1913 Noeta

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 12:53:36

There's another way to look at this... The other guy's insurance may not cover replacement of the motor, but that doesn't necessarily mean the other guy is not liable for the replacement. His negligence in securing his boat has caused you, in all reasonable likelihood, rapid and ongoing deterioration of an engine that should have lasted you 20+ years. No mechanic would guarantee otherwise.

His insurer can cover what they want to--HE'S the one who owes you a salt-free engine of equal or better condition and vintage, although not necessarily new. The fair market value of for an exact replacement, same vintage, is the minimum he owes you.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 12:56:39

Don: You bought a Bottle?? Actually Frank, I don't think that's Don's North Star SR/FK... <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 21:20:38

Tray,

It was said somewhere above, but never reiterated. Honda should have a procedure to deal with this eventuality. Insist on that being performed, by an authorized Honda dealer. The "engine shop next door".....is that a Honda authorized repair facility? If so, did they follow the procedure prescribed, or call Honda to ask? If not, In my eyes their work doesn't count. But then again, I'm naive enough to think that a new Suburban shouldn't vibrate.......good thing GM set me straight. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 21:21:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Hi Don,
Nice pic of your boat. Is that a 250? Did the stern rail seats come standard? Have you heard of anyone retrofitting them to an 89 25 wk? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The picture is of Tray's boat, Weeny Bean, from another post.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

ssteakley
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2003 : 22:14:59

Tray,
Insist on a new or comparable market value compensation. They may be able to get your motor to start on the first pull but the longevity is the issue..the salt will be a problem to all systems unless they are replaced. In Texas we have small claims courts for claims under $5000. I would use whatever avenues you have have in your State. Insurance companies only respond to fair compensation if there is possible litigation. Unfortunately Lawyers have led us to such recourse but the insurance company should not get the best deal...your inconvience is worth something.(by the way I did not sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night)<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>.
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK <img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/forum1.gif" border=0>

Edited by - on

jandrus
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2003 : 12:45:36

I'm sorry to hear about your engine but wanted to toss in some information -

I'm an attorney in Maine. Much of my practice involves cleaning up the mess after accidents of varrious sorts. Here in Maine, its not unusual to have claims involving boats. I want to suggest that you tread lightly as you deal with the engine issue.

First, the other guys insurance is on the hook only if he was negligent. A snapping dock line is not negligent per se if a reasonable person would have thought the line was safe before the storm. So - by moving directly to offering you funds they are impliedly accepting liability. If you push them, they may make you litigate that issue. You may well win on the question of litigation but it removes the possibility of sure payment from the equation, and will add months or years to the process.

Second, you are probably not entitled to an engine of pre-splash value. You are entitled to an engine of pre-splash utitility, at least in most jurisdictions. An example of this theory is that a car that has been wrecked is not worth as much as one that hasn't to most buyers. But you don't get compensated for the difference. You get your car put back in functional condition and repainted.

With you engine you are entitled to have the engine repaired as necessary to make it run, charge, etc., but unless you can show by how much the life expectancy is decreased you cannot recover on that front.

You certainly are entitled to have the work done at a Honda authorize center to Honda spec, though.

Justin

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2003 : 13:37:50

I am also an attorney, albeit retired. The reality is that your claim is not one that you want to litigate, because the insurance company has the assets to overwhelm and abuse you if it wishes. But when Justin said you should "tread lightly," in pressing your claim, that does not mean that you shouldn't ask for complete compensation for your damages.

Insurance companies don't want to make either their claimants or their customers angry. Usually, they only use their vast power and resources to overwhelm and abuse a claimant who has become insulting and unreasonable. If you approach them courteously, make a reasonable claim, and back it up with proof, they will usually respond favorably. It is bad business for them to deny reasonable claims.

If you furnish, for example, a statement from a motor repair shop that clearly states that alternators, and starter motors are severely damaged by a drenching unless they are dismantled and re-lubricated, and that their life-expectancy is significantly diminished, then the insurer has to decide whether to buy you a new motor, or rebuild the components of your motor, or pay you an amount sufficient to buy a used motor of reasonably equal value. How could the insurance company argue, persuasively, that components that have had the necessary lubrication washed out of them do not have a significantly diminished life expectancy?

Make reasonable claims, gather statements of experts to support your claims, and present them to the insurer in a business-like manner. Don't be afraid of insurance companies. The worst that they can do is say "no."

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2003 : 20:42:25

One suggestion to go along with Steve's wise advice: You could casually mention that some of the issues you are presenting were suggested to you by the Catalina owners' Web forum in which you participate. BoatUS may be very interested in your being able to report a favorable or at least fair outcome on a widely-read Web forum. Don't make it a threat--just let them draw their own conclusions.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

Members Avatar

Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2003 : 07:12:17

Thank you all for the advice. I've spoken with Honda Marine and they confirm that my warranty is now void due to the accident. I also spoke to my dealer and three other Honda dealers in my area, and they all concur that even repaired this engine will cause significant trouble in a matter of months. Boat U.S. finally returned my calls yesterday, and asked for a written statement of events. Since I wasn't there for the accident, I could only tell them what I knew after the fact. However, I did include the information from Honda Marine in the statement. I kept the letter polite and undemanding while requesting a replacement vice repair. My insurance company, USAA, has indicated that I am probably entitled to replacement under my policy, and I may pursue that route depending upon Boat U.S.'s response.

This may be my last summer sailing for awhile due to possible transfer, and I would prefer to get the issue resolved quickly rather than take a stand against Boat U.S. In the meantime, I've got my first offshore race planned May 10th, and I'm hoping someone in my sailing club might lend me their outboard for the race.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2003 : 09:25:08

Tray, it sounds like you are doing an excellent job of presenting and supporting your claim. I suggest that, for at least another week or two, you continue your efforts to get Boat US to replace your motor. If they drag their feet unreasonably, then you can make a claim with your insurer, as you suggested, and they will pay you with much less quibbling than the other company. Your insurer will then be entitled to negotiate with the other guy's insurer, to recover the amount that your insurer paid to you. Two insurance companies can negotiate with each other on a more equal footing, and they are more likely to reach a realistic agreement. While they are debating complex legal issues, you will be out sailing and racing.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/30/2003 09:56:57

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

Members Avatar

Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2003 : 20:07:26

I got a call from my insurer today and gave them the whole story. They say that I should have a new engine this weekend! They said they will negotiate settlement with Boat U.S. if they determine the other guy was negligent, but they believe that probably isn't likely since someone at the marina reported seeing his bow line part. I sent them a bunch of digital pictures of the damage, so they won't need to send the adjuster out.

I'll have to pay my deductable, but my rate won't go up. Seems pretty fair to me.

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

jandrus
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
79 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2003 : 21:07:25

Tray - Sounds like you got the perfect result! Teach me to be a nay sayer. Anytime you want a job let me know :).

Justin

c25 #1942 s/v tako kichi

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 04/30/2003 : 22:11:05

Who get's the old motor?

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2003 : 21:37:15

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Who get's the old motor?

Oscar
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Oscar: You have some enemy you want to sell it to?

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda

Edited by - on

Tray
Navigator

Members Avatar

Namibia
224 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2003 : 11:45:10

Well, the results aren't as rosy as I thought...turns out my "replacement cost" coverage only covers my boat, not the sails, canvas, or MOTOR. My deductible is not what I thought either. 6.5 boat units out of my pocket. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> But my claims adjuster was able to locate a new '03 Honda 8 exactly like my original for 2012.00 including the tax, which is 400.00 less than any of the dealers in my area. He's also paying me to repair my own gel-coat chips which helps to defray the cost a little. They're also trying to recover the expense from Boat U.S., including my deductible, but the other guy has suddenly "lost" the parted dock line, so the circumstances can now only be attributed to an Act of God.

Even more suspicious is the local repair shop that assured me the old engine was fine as is. My adjuster wasn't interested in recovering the old engine, and asked me to feel out the repair shop about buying it. He said they'd probably offer me 500.00 for it. So I asked, and the response I got was that it wasn't worth 100.00 and I owed them 300.00 for their efforts to date, so my bill would only be 200. My adjuster is making them fax a detailed invoice of their "repairs" and dealing with them himself.

I pick up my new engine Wednesday, just in time to make the offshore race Saturday. I've got feedback concerning Boat U.S. and their handling of my situation, but I'm not sure how much more ranting you all can stand. If anyone is interested I'll post a separate topic. The ironic thing is that I just got my Boat U.S. renewal in the mail yesterday. I'm writing them a letter to say no thanks with my reasons.

Here's a picture of the damage:
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3db22b3127cce9732d10943520000001610" border=0>

Tray
C-250WB #554
"Weeny Bean"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3da37b3127cce963eb621ece90000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.