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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Which is more important: Main or Head Sail?

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2003 : 17:43:32

if you only had a certain budget and wanted to get the best sail for your money, which sail is more important? Main or Head?

I have a set of base OEM's that, albeit, are much better than the 20 year olds I had, that I bought last year. I've often thought about selling one of them on ebay and buying a higher end sail. I have a 150% genoa and an OEM half batten main with one reef.

If I upgrade, which would I benefit from the most and what features would be best to have? Thanks!!!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 18:39:50

The head sail Jib or gen are the power sails the main is as I see it just a working sail. Stabalizing and balancing the boat, reefing in bad weather and being smaller usualy sees less load. If I were faced with a choice I would have the main surveyed repaired and cleaned and go for a new head sail. That is if it were my choice.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 19:45:22

Doug,
We agree on so much but here I must disagree. IMO the main is the power and the jib points you into the wind. Even hardcore racers will opt for a new main when their speed drops before new headsails. Blownout headsails cost you time in angle a blown main will cost overall speed.
Sorry to confuse you Patrick but the main and the headsail will cost you about the same so I advise you to get a new main.
Also learn how to reef. You need to reef as the wind tops 16 knots. Practice in fair weather so when the time comes you can reef with confidence. There is another thread about knock downs. The C25 will only get knocked down when overpowered. Reefing will keep your feet under you. It’s a basic and necessary skill
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/peregrine2.jpg"]"Peregrine"[/url] C25-#4762 FK

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 19:46:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you only had a certain budget and wanted to get the best sail for your money, which sail is more important? Main or Head?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hmmm...tough choice, but like Doug, I would go for the head sail.

On my boat the genoa gets the most use so I would probably opt a better headsail. I singlehand quite a bit and when the wind/weather is really kickin' it up, I just use the furling genoa and the boat still zooms along at a pretty good clip.

You say you bought both your genoa and main just last year? It seems kind of soon to be replacing them. Do you believe your boat is not performing as it should with these sails?

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 22:44:16

Not being a C-25 racer (only crew on some "real" racers), I'll offer the opinion that the main offers the most room for improvement. The genny on a C-25 can only be flattened so much, based on the sheeting arrangement. The main can be shaped much better using the controls you may have or can add--vang, cunningham, adjustable outhaul, etc. A high-tech main offers the option of a board-tight foil beating into a fresh breeze, while the jenny does not--at least not on this boat.

But then I see Derek has one of those see-thru jennies--what does he have to say?

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Greg Jackson
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 23:08:45

What is more important depends on what you do.

Most of the drive comes from the headsail. I did some tests, side by side, with another boat, and it was pretty clear that in a moderate wind, the head sail is a more important influence on the boat speed.

Never the less, if you plan on racing you will find that both have to be in good condition if you want to be in the lead. Nobody wins races on one good sail.

If you are interested in seaworthyness, then the main may be more important. If you roller furl then you will have very little headsail exposed and a terrible sail shape on the headsail during a blow no matter how old the sail is. If you have hanked on sails, then you should be down to a 110 or storm jib, either of which are probably in good condition because they rarely get used. When it really gets blowing you have no business on the foredeck, you should be double reefed mailsail only or reefed with a storm jib. Under those conditions you definately want a good main.

There are quite a few people out there with 12 to 15 year old sails who feel that new sails are for racers, since they just go out for casual daysails they have no need. In fact, the difference between a decent sail and a blown sail is quite dramatic to a casual daysailor. When you sails are too old the shape provides much greater drag and much less lift. This means that every puff and gust leans the boat in a pretty uncomfortable way. The land lubber crew will scream, thinking they are going over, with every puff. On the other hand, with decent sails, every puff results in an acceleration which can generally be felt. People feel the boat speed up, not lean over, when the gusts come. Land lubbers have fun on their day sail instead of experiencing terror.

As always, a creative sailor can rationalize purchases of upgrades in any number of ways.

G. Jackson

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 23:30:28

Both of my sails are new last year and as I said, OEM's, but good construction and design. I guess I'll just keep 'em, coz it sounds like this is a 50-50% challenge here.

I was thinking and leaning towards the full batten main with cunningham, leach line, 2nd reef, loose foot and some lazy jacks if I did upgrade. But I think I'll play with the controls on mine for a little longer. Maybe work on making my traveler work better.

I did win 2nd place in my first race so the sails combined with the bottom job have helped already.

I have a reporter coming down to this weekend's race to write an article for our local Little Rock Monthly magazine on local sailing. This should be fun! I'll get a pdf of the article or something when they are done and have "Spike" upload it. Thanks for the response.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 00:05:02

Gentlemen, the C25 has a masthead rig. As such, the genoa has more power than the standard factory main and is really the "power plant"
for our boats. Personally I have a custom main with a large roach, so the difference in power between the two is less - but if I go out with only one sail it would be the genoa or even the 110. On mainsail alone, the C25 is pretty much a turkey, and if the main is reefed it's as hard to tack as a cruising catamaran! I've raced in 25 knots with just a 110 up and won (I don't have 2 reef points). Sorry to disagree with the mainsail supporters but's that's been my experience in 14 years of racing.
Derek (who had a great fun run with Steve on his C250 tonight).

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 00:07:24

P.S. If the main is old and shot, you can still give it some shape using all the controls - outhaul, vang, cunningham, backstay. If the headsail is old and shot it's virtually impossible to make it a functional shape.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 01:35:02

THANK YOU DEREK

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 02:46:35

Okay, let's hear recommendations from both sides. What's the best config, within reason ($$), for a main, and best config for head. I can always sell one or the other. I'm just looking to, since I bought the lower end sails, get a little extra edge now that I'm going to be racing her. My main focus is cruising still, though. So keep that in mind. To tell you the truth, I've been quite happy with my new main, it's easy to raise and control. I've always wondered if I couldn't have done better on the genoa. Anyway, it's not like I'm running out of projects to spend money on, so this may be several seasons from now. Once again, thanks for the input.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 12:23:32

"Maybe work on making my traveler work better".
Patrick - you can make the traveler a usable control by bringing the control lines back to mid-cockpit. It takes 3 small turning blocks, a small fairlead, and a small cam cleat for each side. Use 3/16" line...Here's pics of mine:-

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df03b3127cce93a53fc55a7a0000001510" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df03b3127cce93a53fc15a7e0000001510" border=0>
Total cost (from the expensive place) $146.00
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 13:38:04

Patrick,

Save your money and use the sails you have. Sails are like golf clubs. A good golfer can hit long, straight, impressive drives with the cheapest clubs in the discount store. A poor golfer can't keep the ball in the fairway, even if he's using the best clubs made. You did the absolute, best thing you could do to make the boat fast when you stripped the bottom. You can win lots of races with a clean bottom and your one-year-old sails. Work on improving your sail trimming and boat handling skills. Eliminate mistakes. Everyone makes them, but if you can make fewer mistakes than the others, you can win races.

Some years ago there was a sailor at our lake who bought an extremely fast racer, equipped it with the best, high-tech sails and electronic racing computers, and took racing lessons from North U, and he wasn't even close to being competitive. You're already doing better than he did.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 15:55:37

I thought the C-25 had the smaller main/larger genny and the C-250 had the larger main/smaller genny. So on the C-25 the genny carries more power; on the C-250 the main would. Right?

But, I'm not understanding the question. You have two new sails. Are you looking to go back to one of the 20 year old sails and improve the other, or just sell one to buy a better made sail? In which case you'd have two new sails, one would just be better than a basic new sail?

If the latter is the case, I'd have to say improve the main. While the genny may be the workhorse, the difference between a basic main and one with all the battens and whistles is greater than the difference between a basic and deluxe genny. What are the options on a deluxe genny over a basic that would gain performance?

Just my $.02 worth.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 18:20:55

Went to barnes and noble, bought a new book on sail trim and it's focused more to smaller boats like ours. I think I'm going to work on my traveler with Derek's suggestions and keep what I have. I was just wondering though, nothing wrong with that, right? That's the beautiful thing about this forum, we can discuss these things before committing tons of $$. Like the time you guys saved me beaucoup $$ when I thought I wanted wheel steering!

The new book has pointed out several things I know are wrong with my sail trim right now! The leach line on my main is too tight and acting like a brake, I need to use my boom vang more often as well as the traveler to improve the twists in my main to better match my genny, mess with the outhaul more depending on the wind and start reefing my main before reefing my genny. The new SAIL magazine has an article on how we have a tendency to pull the furled genny in a few turns instead of balancing the rig properly with the reefed main...etc.

I like the Golf reference because sailing is a lot like that game, no matter how many years you play, it can still teach you a lesson and the learning never ends, eh?

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 11:05:46

derek!
talk to me about your outboard remote control.
what brand is it?
what type motor?
would you do it again?
what kind?
what control do you have on it?

looks very good

dave holtgrave
5722 sk/tr
sailing carlyle lake in southern illinois

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 11:20:14

Steve Milby has some very good points. Use what you have.

However, If the money is burning a hole in your pocket, and I know the feeling, I would go for a new main sail. It will improve your pointability immensely and if you get some added roach it will help with your weatherhelm.

You can always get headsails used from just about anywhere. Our 135% jib is a J24 #1 heavy air jib. I got it from a serious racer who cycles through his headsails every 2 years. I paid near to nothing for it and it works great. We also have a Cruising Direct 150%. which was relatively inexpensive and works like a charm.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 11:30:18

Dave - my O/B is a '93 8 h.p. Nissan, XLS, and it came with the remote control set-up. We bought it so that Judy (who is all of 4' 10") could easily start the motor if I was incapacitated for any reason. I love it! The cockpit control is a simple handle - back for reverse, forward for forward (!) and the further you push the handle the more revs. It has no directional control,so I bolted a length of aluminum tube across the front of the motor (it doesn't have a tiller arm) so that I can easily turn the motor as necessary. I recently changed props and went to a 6.5" pitch for better control at low revs.
I can't imagine life without it now...
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 11:48:38

Dave, I also have a Nissan and priced out the controls as an add on. One of these days I hope to do it as well, but at roughly $300 I will have to wait a little while.

Duane, I've been talking to Dirk down at national sails, where I got my new ones last year, about either a drifter or gennaker. He thinks that the perfomance gain from the full batten version of my main would be negligable on a cruising boat like the C25. I can't afford any of them right now, but I do have a birthday and christmas to hope for, eh? (bought my boat for myself for my 27th birthday 5 years ago! who else was gonna do it, huh?)

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/luckystar_0602_sm.jpg" border=0> 
http://www.proxycreative.com/luckystar.html

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 21:28:53

IIam the furthest thing from an expert on sail trim ( 50 years of "put yer feet up, drink yer beer, and race the guy alongside") but Robby Doyle, who should be considered ("attention must be paid") wrote an article entitled " the headsail is the performer" some years ago. God Bless, ron (currently pusuiing leaks not sail trim) #2343 Orion 1981 SWFL

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 22:26:51

Yup--Steve Milby is dead on. If your sails aren't old bags, the greatest improvements are probably in the sailing.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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