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jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2003 : 20:09:47

Another question if I could. During the sail today we attempted to sail wing on wing with wind off the stern, main to starboard, and standard jib to port. We COULD NOT get the jib to fill under any circumstance. The jib is "standard" size and attached to roller furling. Our boat does have another halyard which looks to be used for a spinnaker but we do not have a pole. What were we doing wrong with the main way out to starboard and a 12 knot breeze not filling the jib to port?
Thanks as always.

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 20:23:42

Jeff
Try sheeting the main in slightly to force air from it into the jib. Also play with yor jib sheets a bit to see if you can fill the sail. I also tie peices of casette tape to my upper shrouds so I can easily tell where the wind is coming from (telltales). I also strongly recommend some sort of boom preventer to avoid any nasty surprises. The C25 is difficult to hold wing on wing with a large following sea, so practice on calmer days if possible.
Hope some of this helps. Oh, another thing. I don't have a pole either, but a boat hook held in the clew of the headsail works nicely if you have a willing crewmember. I usually have the person inside the shrouds and hanging on to them for security and the boathook in the other hand. Good luck

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2003 : 23:08:39

I'm guessing the wind was slightly from the side the jib was on, which is the safer thing for preventing an accidental jibe. Try turning just a little further down, even very slightly past straight downwind if the wind isn't too strong. If you're not pitching or rolling too much, an unintended jibe is not that likely, but a preventer is a good idea. Some use the vang for that purpose, attaching it to a stanchion base.

Sheeting in the main a little, as Shawn suggests, has some of the same effect, and also slightly increases the possibility of a jibe.

Remember, however, that the fastest route to a point straight downwind is often by sailing off the wind a little and then jibing to the opposite tack off the wind--for more speed. In my experience, wing-and-wing is mostly for show--the jib rarely adds much power that way.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 00:14:47

I agree with Dave - unless you have a whisker pole, sailing wing on wing is darned hard (almost impossible on our inland lake where the wind shifts faster than most ladies change their minds). If you can do it successfully you are one good helmsman! I often have to practice it coming home after racing, when the prevailing wind is off the stern and the foredeck crew has gone on strike!
Incidentally Shawn - if you race it is illegal to have a crewman hold out the "pole" - the inboard end must be attached to the mast.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 01:19:41

Jeffj How would you like a nice 16' wisker pole for about 40 dollars. Make a very nice one here is how. Go down to West Marine. Pick out their longest telescoping boat hook. Go over to the rigging section next and pick up a set of plastic wisker pole ends or just the end with the snap hook. Look at the boat hook pole. The end with the handle should be the same inside diamiter as the wisker pole snap fitting. Take both home. Cut off just the end of the rubber handle on the boat hook. Epoxy the wisker pole snap fitting into the end of the boat hook and walla. The boat hook hook end will fit into a loop tied in the sheet attachment to the jib. tention on the jib sheet against the new wisker pole will keep it there and the other end will clip onto the front of the mast. If your going to play with this set up you might also want to make a preventer to stop the boom from comming over in a accidental jibe. Have fun.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - Douglas on 06/05/2003 01:20:36

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 12:28:56

That's a heck of a lot cheaper than Forespar's $500+ !! But I wouldn't use it in more than about 10 knots wind - the compression force from a jib (especially a 155) is considerable - I've seen the smaller diameter poles snap in two, and a flying piece of aluminum tubing with a jagged end is an awesome weapon!
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 13:10:45

Sailing wing-and-wing in light to medium air without a whisker pole is difficult, because the wind strength isn't sufficient to hold up the weight of the sail, and the sail collapses. Sailing wing-and-wing in light to medium air with a whisker pole is not difficult, because the pole holds the sail out and keeps it from collapsing. But, in stronger air, sailing wing-and-wing, even without the whisker pole, is much easier, when you steer the boat as others above have suggested. When you are sailing wing-and-wing without a pole in strong wind, you have to pay close attention to your helmsmanship, because, if you veer too far one way, your jib will collapse, and if you veer too far the other way, your mainsail will gybe.

The conventional wisdom is that you should broad reach downwind in light air, and run downwind in stronger winds, and I generally agree with that, but the only time I broad reach downwind is when the boat is close to losing steerageway. Otherwise, I run within about 5 degrees on either side of dead downwind, using the whisker pole. Unlike light-weight racers, our relatively heavy cruiser/racers don't gain much speed in light air by broad reaching, and when you tack back-and-forth on a broad reach downwind, you are travelling at acute angles to your destination, and you travel a much greater distance than when you are running downwind straight for your objective. The speed that we gain by broad reaching downwind usually isn't enough to make up for the greater distance sailed.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 20:04:34

Thanks for the input. I think instead of a pole, I will just take a longer course!

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 20:40:46

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...our relatively heavy cruiser/racers don't gain much speed in light air by broad reaching, and when you tack back-and-forth on a broad reach downwind, you are travelling at acute angles to your destination, and you travel a much greater distance than when you are running downwind straight for your objective. The speed that we gain by broad reaching downwind usually isn't enough to make up for the greater distance sailed.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Some day I'll have to test that theory with my GPS--VMG to the downwind destination is proof one way or the other. To me, if the wind won't hold the jib out, putting a pole on just fakes it--the sail adds virtually no power. Personally, I like the feel of a little heel and the sight of a little wake--especially on a sultry day on Long Island Sound. Our boat definitely picks up slightly off the wind and slows down dead downwind (wing and wing), but we don't use a pole and we haven't raced our C-25.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 23:42:08

It's not often that I disagree with our explanatory guru (aka Steve!) but I have to this time! Sailing dead downwind is the slowest point of sail, PERIOD! The poled out sails at 90 degrees to the axis of the boat act as a "wall" and the wind is just pushing on this wall. Now, if you rotate the whole sailplan slightly (trim the main and ease the pole) and "move" the wind to the corner of the transom (keeping the boom to leeward) you do generate "lift" over the sails because the wind can flow over the sails just as it does on any other point of sail. There is no question that this is the fastest point of sail when the wind is behind the boat, and IMHO more than compensates for the little extra distance you sail. When racing I keep the arrow of the windex over the appropriate tab - and we pass more boats downwind than we ever do going to weather! BTW we never use a preventer - if the wind starts swinging (as is usual), the foredeck crew (sitting alongside the mast to leeward) just grabs the boom vang and holds on.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 23:49:09

I personally don't find it difficult to go downwind (wing on wing) as long as I keep an eye on my windex. If I keep the wind (by careful helmsmanship) slightly on the jib side of the stern, then I'm less likely to gybe the main.
I find it enjoyable because it is a challenge.
My wife er uh, admiral, hates it ' cause she hates the accidental gybe. She prefers the long way around (described in previous post).
Anyway, keep an eye on your windex or maybe you have tell tales mounted on your shrouds.
I think it's fun.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2003 : 23:58:34

I love these posts and some of the statments made. I use to think as some here do about what was the slowest or fastest way. It may often seem slow. It may even be slow but when you cover the least distance possable and do it at a direct route sometimes slowest is the fastest way from point a to point b. Heck I use to sheet in like crazy and heel way over. Thought I was going fast oh yea baby look at her heal I must be hauling buns. Learned with time and experiance to ease the sheet get her upright head off a little and listen to the new guy say I wonder why the other boat beat me there. Or why if he isnt hard on the wind does he always seem faster. Oh and yep Derek I would only use the home made pole in light wind.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 00:15:20

Thanks Doug. After seeing the pics of Triska, I would really enjoy seeing her someday out on the Sound!

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 00:19:54

Sorry. The reference to the pics of Triska were another post that Doug commented on. Didn't want to confuse anybody.
P.S. If you want to see the pics, just go to my post headed "Knock Down Point", I think that was it<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>
Thanks again

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 09:05:30

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If your going to play with this set up you might also want to make a preventer to stop the boom from comming over in a accidental jibe. Have fun.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

An easy way to rig a preventer is to put a snap shackle on the mast end of your boom vang. When sailing down wind, take the vang off the boom, and attach it to one of the cars on the rail. The cost is minimal but the peace of mind that you are not decapitating a crewmember is huge.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Chip Hunt
Navigator

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120 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 12:23:10

in my experience, wing and wing is the most difficult point of sail to stay on. it is also likely the most dangerous, due to the increased likelyhood of the aforementioned (and dreaded) accidental jibe. when i sail wing and wing, i find myself paying more attention to my wind indicator at the top of the mast than anything else. if the wind is above five knots or so, and you keep the wind directly behind you, you shouldnt have trouble keeping your headsail full.

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 18:21:07

Jeffj:
Look at my profile and give me a call. Ill be sailing this weekend if you want to catch a ride. Probably going out Saturday might even head to Dockton.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

jheard
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2003 : 19:29:01

Since your jib is attached to a roller furler, I assume there is a UV cover along the leech of your sail. This heavy cloth is probably weighing your sail down. The wing to wing manuver is hard enough to keep the jib full. Maybe try a light cruising spinaker.

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jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2003 : 00:57:21

Doug,
A couple of issues. 1. We are going out with a group of "charterers" in our club. I hate to say it but we will be on a 43 Hunter for the day Sat. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> 2. Where is Dockton? I have not sailed much south of West Seattle, I know that is a pretty tight radius. If you are going out for the weekend, take the sunscreen and ENJOY, should be awesome.
We would like to catch up with you soon however and sail together!

Jeff J.
'85 Cat 25'

Edited by - on

jeffj
1st Mate

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USA
63 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2003 : 00:59:33

Doug,
P.S. As I said in an earlier post, "Triska" is a fine looking boat and I would love the chance to see her in person.

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2003 : 04:16:57

Jeffj I didn't realize your all the way up in Kirkland. Im in Tacoma. It would be better to set something up and do a sail.

Edited by - Douglas on 06/07/2003 04:19:10

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2003 : 00:50:16

Dockton. Go south to the saouth end of Vashon Island. Enter Quartermaster Harbor at the south end. Say on the west side. There is a sand bar maked with a red floating triangle on the east side. Go north in the harbor about two miles. Dog leg to the East / left. Dockton is back in the corner.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2003 : 07:08:46

The only way to really answer the question about broad reaching and sailing dead down wind is to get specific. We would need something like a "speed rose' which defines boat speed for a C25/250 (possibly for different keel configurations and sail plans) as a function of wind speed. With that one could calculate the time to travel to a point directly downwind by various ways of sailing (running, broad reaching).

Has anyone ever seen such a diagram for a C25/250?

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2003 : 22:09:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
We would need something like a "speed rose' which defines boat speed for a C25/250 (possibly for different keel configurations and sail plans) as a function of wind speed. With that one could calculate the time to travel to a point directly downwind by various ways of sailing (running, broad reaching).

Has anyone ever seen such a diagram for a C25/250?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Don: The variables also include wind speed, so a printed chart would have to be in three dimensions (many pages). To me, the alternative is a GPS with the VMG function. Set your downwind mark as your waypoint. The course that maximizes VMG is optimal. That'll show you, by the way, that you've passed the layline sailing off the wind downwind. (VMG drops because you're sailing too far away from the mark.)

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2003 : 23:25:55

Dave... Cruising rarely offers a dead downwind course... but I did that very thing once with a destination directly down wind 30 miles away so decided I would check which was better, directly downwind wing n wing or a broad reach poled out on the same side. Dead downwind was favored by VMG numbers.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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