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question on poling out a genoa

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/30/2003 : 13:00:50

Hi, I had a great day solo sailing yesterday - the most fun yet. The morning was calm and grey with the ocean like glass. I motored up to the Dana Point kelp, hoisted the main, and drifted at 1 knot for a couple of hours fishing. Then the sun came out and a nice afternoon breeze came up - I would guess 10 to 12 knots. This was the first time I was brave enough to stay out in stronger winds. The motor was running great and I was wearing my new harness. There was no real swell, just 1-2 foot wind chop with occasional white caps. So I decided to sail to Newport Beach - 13 miles dead upwind. After a couple of hours tacking, throwing spray, heeling, and blasting through the waves (having a great time) I decided to come home. I was about 1/2 way.

On the down wind run home I put the main out to port and used a big heavy bungee cord as a preventer. The 155 genoa naturally wanted to go over to starboard. It filled, but kept collapsing. I was making about 4.5 knots (seemed REAL slow). The bungee prevented a few accidental gybes. But I couldn't keep the genny full. Eventually I gave up and "tacked" down wind taking a big beam reach offshore and then another inshore and back to harbor. I expect a long downwind run coming home from Catalina so I would like to do it better.

I have a 3 part Forespar telescoping spinnaker pole. I don't know exactly how to use it. It extends to over 15 feet. I have 2 spare halyards rigged and waiting. One is longer than the other. The mast has a big ring facing the bow about 4 feet up from the deck.

The pole has 2 stainless eyes about 6 feet from the heavy end. I assume you clip the heavy end to the ring in the mast, and use the shorter of the halyards to clip to this eye and use it as a topping lift.

Question - the pole has 2 stainless cables forming loops at each end. What do you do with these?

The lighter end of the pole that would engage the sail has a small sliding "trigger" in a slot with the two cable loops attached to it. I assume that you clip this to the eye sewn into the clew (outboard part) of the genoa. What do you do with the cable loops? Do you run some kind of line to the sliding trigger? Is this purpose to enable you to release the sail from the pole when it is out? What keeps the pole from swinging about wildly every time the boat rolls and yaws?

Finally, assuming the pole is attached to the mast, the topping lift holding the pole up off the deck, the pole extended, the light end clipped onto the genoa clew, don't you have to run some kind of line from the end of the pole to the cockpit in order to hold the pole out at right angles to the boat (like a preventer)? What do you connect this line to? If you tied onto the trigger's cable loops wouldn't it pull the trigger and release the sail?

I assume the other spare halyard (longer) is what the PO used to hoist the spinakker. I am not ready to try that yet, maybe next summer. Meanwhile I'd like to pole out the genny.

I am going to experiment with this in calm winds and flat seas early some morning with no one around for miles.

PS. With my new SOS harness and tether I felt safe and secure on deck where before I was always afraid, timid, and tentative anytime I left the cockpit.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/30/2003 : 13:24:35

Hey Jim,

Sounds like you're getting the feel of your boat.

From your description, it appears that the topping lift bridle and foreguy bridle have been removed from your pole. The SS eyes and cables near the pole ends are probably for secruing the bridles. Without the bridles, you would shackle the topping lift to one of the cables on the thin end of the pole (the upper side) and the foreguy to the other one (for spinnaker sailing).

However, you usually do not have to use the topping lift or foreguy for sailing wing 'n'wing with a jib or genny. Simply clip the "big" end of your pole to the ring on the mast and the "thin" end to a loop in the jibsheet near the sail's clew corner. I tie my sheets to the sail clew with a bowline knot, so there's already a loop in the sheet to clip the pole to. The weight of the pole and sheet tension keep the sail shape pretty flat and powerful.

Be careful to rig the pole ahead of your forward lower shrouds - not between the forward lower and upper shrouds. If you have to sheet out quickly in a gust and the pole is between the two shrouds, you may damage or break the pole. EXPENSIVE!

Also, if the pole is ahead of the forward lowers as noted above, do not sheet in so far as to bend the pole on the forward lower shroud. Again, EXPENSIVE!

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2003 : 13:37:30

Jim - the bridles attached to the jaws can be useful! With the pole extended to the correct length (on my 155% it is 15' 9" long) I used a length of vinyl covered wire and nicropressed each end to each bridle, so that the wire was snug against the pole. Now it is easy to extend the pole to the correct length, and the foredeck crew can release each end by pulling on the wire in opposite directions without having to reach out to the pole end. Like Bill I tie my jib sheets into the clew with a bowline, and thus the pole has a ready-made loop for attachment. I also endorse Bill's description of pole placement with regard to the shrouds.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/30/2003 : 15:01:10

Jim,

I take a different approach to the setting of a pole from Bill and Derek. I believe that setting the pole between the forward lower and the upper shroud is the most efficient way. I agree that there is some risk that the pole might break in a strong gust, but my approach to that is: 1) I don't set the pole when the wind is likely to gust that hard. If the wind is blowing so hard that it is likely to break my lightweight pole, then I believe the boat can be sailed wing-and-wing without the pole just as fast as if a pole was set. Our rather heavy (for their size) displacement boats can only be driven so fast downwind. If you set a pole in really strong winds, the boat can become overpowered and you create a risk of broaching, among other hazards. I don't think anything significant is gained by setting a pole in strong winds. On the contrary, it creates unnecessary risks. In two races yesterday we had strong gusts on the long downwind leg, and we did not set the pole in either race. Some racers set their poles, and others flew spinnakers, and we were not the least bit disadvantaged by running wing-and-wing without a pole. Those who set poles and flew spinnakers were struggling with boats that were barely controllable. We had an exhilerating downwind run to the finish line.

2) I use a lightweight, inexpensive pole, and if I mistakenly set it in winds that are too strong, it will only cost $35. to replace it. In 20+ years, with my restrained approach to setting it, I've only broken one. To the best of my recollection, I've never broached when running downwind. I doubt that racers who make a practice of setting a pole when running in strong winds can make the same statement.

We all share the same concerns about safety and about the expense of broken equipment, but there are different ways of dealing with those concerns.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2003 : 15:48:53

OK, I understand. I already have this heavy, long pole. The topping lift is not needed. The light end of the pole will clip to the bowline in the sheet at the end of the genoa. The heavy end will be on the mast. The genoa sheet itself keeps the pole from moving forward. The sail (plus wind) keeps the pole from moving backwards. The pole itself goes forward of the shrouds and over the lifelines. (Some differing opinion as to going between the forward and upper shrouds. I think I'll try it forward first).

How do you manhandle a >15 foot long (heavy) pole? Sailing alone.

Clip the light end on the sail first. Extend the light end. Push it out. Then extend the middle, finally clipping the heavy end on the mast?

How do you get it in?

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2003 : 16:01:03

Steve - I agree with not setting a pole in "strong winds" (basically, you don't need it!), but how would you define strong? Personally we don't set in 20 knots or over - a basic safety precaution. However, it's not the strong winds that cause concern - it's the gusts! When we've been cruising along in 10 - 12k and get a gust of 20k, THAT'S when I want to be able to EASE that pole! And that is a pretty regular occurence on Canyon Lake - with no warning! In various races there I have encountered the following - running poled-out to the leeward mark and saw a J-22 running a chute on a RECIPROCAL course: been close-hauled on port 2 boat lengths behind a boat close-hauled on stbd (going in the same direction!): going to the weather mark had the boat "tack" without the bow changing direction (we just eased the working sheet and brought the genoa across): and watched a boat on the same tack 2 boat lengths to leeward of me sail away while I sat still! I don't know in what wind conditions you race but I imagine that they are much steadier than ours. As a final note, we had an uncle of Judy's (who raced the Chesapeake for decades and who has more trophies than I'll ever have) take the helm in a long distance race. After 15 mins he told me to take it back - he said "I thought the Chesapeake was shifty - but this lake is plain ridiculous!"
BTW I have never broached running downwind...<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/30/2003 : 19:31:50

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>How do you manhandle a >15 foot long (heavy) pole? Sailing alone. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Watching me struggle to set my whisker pole while singlehanding has been the source of much amusement for my fellow racers. When I set the pole while singlehanding I set my tiller tamer, then run forward, extend the pole to the desired length, put it between the forward lower and the upper shrouds, attach the small end to the bowline on the jibsheet, push the pole out and attach the other end to the pad eye on the mast, and then run back and adjust the jibsheet, hopefully before the tiller tamer lets the boat wander too far off course. Setting the pole while singlehanding is very difficult at best, and I only recommend it in light winds. You really need crew to do it right.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> How do you get it in?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I gather that what you mean is, how do you take the pole down? If you take the pole down when the wind is light, you can detach it at either the mast or at the sail. It doesn't matter which. If the wind is blowing hard, the wind force on the sails is working against you, no matter how you try to take the pole down, and it can be a real struggle. That's one reason why I don't recommend using it while singlehanding, except in light air, and even with crew I almost never set it in anything over moderate, steady winds.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> how would you define strong? Personally we don't set in 20 knots or over <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't have an anemometer, and am not a great judge of windspeed in terms of kph, but I am a pretty good judge of whether the wind is likely to gust hard enough on any given day to break my lightweight pole. If I misjudge it, my penalty is to replace my $35. pole. If I expected 10-12 k steady winds, I would probably use the pole. If I expected 10-12 k winds that were gusting to 20 k, I would certainly not use it. Sometimes I get a big gust when I don't expect it, but not often.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I don't know in what wind conditions you race but I imagine that they are much steadier than ours<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

A couple of times a year I will be out sailing close hauled, and the wind will begin to lift the boat persistently. I will steer the boat to follow the windshift, and end up sailing in a 360 circle ( about 100 yds in diameter) without tacking or changing the sail trim. Our lake is bounded by hills and trees, and the constantly shifting wind is what keeps it interesting.

When the pole is set, you are very restricted in the range within which you can change course without dropping the pole. When you are sailing wing-and-wing without the pole, you can instantly gybe the jib and the mainsail at the same time to take advantage of a windshift, and, if the wind shifts back to its previous angle, you can gybe them back just as quickly. Not using the pole makes it very easy to tack downwind. The guy who has his pole set might have to send crew forward to take it down before he can change to a desired new course.

Most racing sailors think they have to spread out the most sail area that is possible at all times, in order to be competitive. Sailboats hate to be overpowered, but one of the most common sins of racers is in overpowering their boats. Sailboats perform their best when you achieve the best balance in the amount of sail area and sail trim. When the wind is especially shifty, that is when I don't want the pole set, because it limits my ability to alter course at will.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 06/30/2003 : 21:02:29

Steve - I never set the pole when singlehanding. It's a lot easier and safer to sail the angles.
You would find it easier and quicker to set your pole if you already had the pole extended to the correct length. We never collapse ours until the races are over.
Also, in good winds, when dropping the pole, if the jib sheet is eased so that the pole rests against the forestay, you don't have to fight a full genoa! Similarly, when setting the pole, hook it on the genoa, push it forward alongside the appropriate side of the forestay, hook it on the mast and then push it out - again, no fighting of a full sail.
Whenever the pole is set, the foredeck crew stay on the foredeck, sitting in front of the mast, ready to drop it or jibe it immediately.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 07/01/2003 : 10:53:47

If you have a spare halyard, or an actual toping lift, and attached it to the upper bridle, it would assist you in handling the pole while solo....

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/01/2003 : 13:56:51

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I never set the pole when singlehanding. It's a lot easier and safer to sail the angles.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You set the pole when you are racing with crew because it is faster. That's why I set it when I'm singlehanding in light to moderate winds. It's faster than sailing the angles.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> You would find it easier and quicker to set your pole if you already had the pole extended to the correct length. We never collapse ours until the races are over.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

My pole is collapsed except when it's in use. An extended, 12' long pole presents too much possibility of snagging jib sheets and sails, and it is a tripping hazard for crew.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Also, in good winds, when dropping the pole, if the jib sheet is eased so that the pole rests against the forestay, you don't have to fight a full genoa! Similarly, when setting the pole, hook it on the genoa, push it forward alongside the appropriate side of the forestay, hook it on the mast and then push it out - again, no fighting of a full sail.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't have to fight a full genoa, because I don't set the pole in winds that are that strong. The last time I did that was in the 2001 Nationals, when I borrowed a friend's heavy duty pole, and I regretted it. I think there is a better way to sail downwind in strong winds.

I raced my boat solo for many years. You have to learn to do things differently than you would do them if you had crew. It forced me to find ways to be competitive downwind without setting the pole in stronger winds. Now, even when I have crew, I don't set the pole in winds that might break my lightweight pole, because (1) I don't own a heavyweight pole, and (2) I really don't want to break my lightweight pole. But, everyone doesn't have to race their boats the way you or I race ours. I've described my approach to downwind sailing, because there are probably a lot of sailors who, like me, only own a lightweight pole, and who want to know how they can race competitively with a lightweight pole.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 07/01/2003 : 16:02:15

Chacun a son gout, Steve <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> That's what makes this world an interesting place...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

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TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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LOREN SOUERS
Navigator

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Response Posted - 07/01/2003 : 16:30:03

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Some racers set their poles, and others flew spinnakers, and we were not the least bit disadvantaged by running wing-and-wing without a pole. Those who set poles and flew spinnakers were struggling with boats that were barely controllable. We had an exhilerating downwind run to the finish line.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This quote interests me. I haven't raced in a coon's age, but I have watched some racing, and I always thought that, for the downwind leg, racers preferred to tack downwind to maintain good boat speed. I am interested in the fact that you sailed gull-winged, which means you were virtually dead down wind, and not tacking. And yet your quote sounds that you were doing well against the others boats who had set their spinnakers. Perhaps this is because of the strong wind that day. Or maybe C25s just run better than others straight downwind.

Can you comment on this, Steve?

Loren Souers, skipper
Nimue, the Lady of the Lake

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/01/2003 : 17:51:35

Hi Loren,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I always thought that, for the downwind leg, racers preferred to tack downwind to maintain good boat speed. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Broad reaching downwind is a good tactic when the wind is very light. When the boat is close to losing momentum while running, you can keep the boat moving a little by broad reaching, and in doing so, you can hunt for pockets of wind. But broad reaching is not a fast way to get to a downwind destination, because broad reaching takes the boat on long, diagonal courses, back and forth across the lake. If your destination is dead downwind of you, then running dead downwind is the fastest way to get there in all but very light winds, because it is the shortest distance, and the boat is capable of its highest speed under the conditions. Also, when running downwind, the wide stern of the boat lifts a bit, and reduces the amount of wetted surface of the hull, which also reduces drag. When running downwind, even in a strong wind, the boat usually is not heeling severely, and heeling creates drag. When you are on a beam reach, which is generally regarded as the "fastest point of sail," the boat heels in strong wind, which slows the boat.

In strong winds a sailboat will achieve a higher speed running downwind than on any other course. (In moderate winds, I'll grant you that a beam reach is faster, but not so in strong winds.) I have been on many sailboats with knotlogs, running dead downwind, and they have achieved speeds far in excess of the boat's theoretical hull speed.

You have to figure out (1) which course will result in the highest boat speed, and (2) which course will take you to your destination in the shortest distance. Depending on all the conditions, the shortest distance might take you to the finish line in the least amount of time, or the highest boat speed might get you there quicker, or a combination of the two might be the best of all.

I should add that the above principles apply to Catalina 25s and boats of similar design. They don't apply to the fastest racing boats and catamarans.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/01/2003 17:59:39

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 10:53:45

After years of crewing on an Ensign, and fluying spinniker when ever we could, I crewed with Steve at Nationals, and on the first race was surprised by the pressure on the sail when we set up wing on wing. I was surprised at the both the pressure and speed that we maintained on that run.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 12:30:13

Has anyone read the article titled, "Give Your Headsails Room to Breathe" by Don Street that is in the latest issue(July) of Cruising World?

In it he discusses a technique to essentially "pole out" the headsail to open the slot between it and the main to increase the power generated by the sails. The nifty thing is that instead of using a pole, he uses the boom. To accomplish this he has a fiddle block(although I would use a snatch block) attached to a bale on the end of the boom. When reaching, he eases the boom and reeves the jibsheet through the block on the boom, so the jib sheet route is now from the jib clew, through the block at the end of the boom, back down to the jib track car, and finally back to the winch.

It sounds like a very interesting idea that I'm going to try because, as a singlehanded sailor, this technique would allow me to stay in the cockpit instead of going up on deck to rig the whisker pole.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 13:30:32

Something I was wondering about.

When we sailed with the spinniker on the Ensign, the sheet with the pole was only rode over the sheet. That way if it was necessary to release it it could be done. Releasing the sheet on the other side and the guy prn. the sail would move forward and wind would be dumped.

Why not do something similar on a 25? Then if you needed to dump the sail you could let it go.

I'd be interested in reactions.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 14:04:55

Don L. - would you get the same effect if the snatch block was on the mast end of the boom? It would save having to buy new jib sheets...
Derek

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TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 15:40:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Would you get the same effect if the snatch block was on the mast end of the boom? It would save having to buy new jib sheets...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

The purpose of locating the snatch block at the end of the boom, away from the mast, is to move the jib sheeting point from the genoa track to the end of the boom that is farther out over the water. This, according to the article, opens up the slot between the sails, allowing the main to be eased out farther because it is no longer being backwinded by the genoa.

He claims that by opening the slot both sails will have more power and it will make it easier to trim out excessive weather helm.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
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North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 07/02/2003 15:44:04

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 07/02/2003 : 16:45:17

I noted the tech tip in Cruising World... one thing not pointed out, is that the scheme is an answer to the problem that an inboard track creates. While the inboard track does better to weather, it holds the jib clew in too tight off wind and the boom mounted jib fairlead might be the answer. The c25 sheeted to the rail probably doesn't need the scheme. I doubt seriously that the slot gets too tight on it.

The other requirement to use the scheme...is the sail has to be cut high (clew needs to have a high set) or a tag line has to be used to barber haul the sheeting angle back down. This would likely be a requirement on boats 25', though not a deal breaker... in my opinion it would be a cruising rigging rather than daysailing or racing.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
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N/E Texas and Great Lakes

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