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what kind of knot to ties reef lines?

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/04/2003 : 12:14:17

i'm practicing my knots and was wondering which i should use (when reefing)

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo.jpg" border=0>

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 13:07:41

Steve

This one's too easy: a REEF knot.

I assume you mean the reef lines around the boom from your mainsail.

The reef knot is the right way to tie the knot that sometimes comes out as a granny knot.

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 13:22:28

Here's another, Steve: the "sailor's all-purpose quick-release knot".
You tie a single half-hitch, then make a loop with one end, wrap the other end around it, and... aw hell--it's a bow knot like you tie on your shoes. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> The reef lines shouldn't be tight--you don't want any strain on the grommets--and should be releasable in a second. The good ole bow not does that, and we don't even have to think about how to tie it!

OK, guys--let me have it!

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 16:39:07

My sailmaker insists that tying in the reef grommets is a mistake - he said that sooner or later a gust will rip the main. So, "This Side Up" doesn't even have any grommets...I guess that if you want to double reef you do need to tie in the first.
This is where the name for the reef (or square) knot originated.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 17:43:41

Derek: I thought your main was loose-footed... If so, it would seem that tying down the reef should be no problem as long as you don't tie around the boom. But for "tight-footed" rigs like mine, I agree that it's a shaky idea unless the ties are kept really loose. In that case, it's nice to have a flaking system--but I don't.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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jncarlin
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 22:14:52

Check out this site - it has a very nifty way of demonstrating nautical knots:

http://www.tollesburysc.co.uk/Knots/Knots_gallery.htm

Joe Carlin

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 22:56:17

Most people know the reef knot by it's more common name...the square knot.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You tie a single half-hitch, then make a loop with one end, wrap the other end around it, and... aw hell--it's a bow knot like you tie on your shoes. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dave,

Is the knot you are describing a Slipped Square Knot?

A square knot made with a loop(like when tying shoes) is a slipped square knot and is used when quick and easy untying is desired.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 23:09:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Check out this site - it has a very nifty way of demonstrating nautical knots:

http://www.tollesburysc.co.uk/Knots/Knots_gallery.htm

Joe Carlin
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hi Joe ... thanks! That website is just too cool! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2003 : 23:22:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Dave,

Is the knot you are describing a Slipped Square Knot?

A square knot made with a loop(like when tying shoes) is a slipped square knot and is used when quick and easy untying is desired.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
That could be! It could be like tying your shoes with a single loop instead of two, which does the job. I also never knew the Boy Scout's square not was called a reef not--the "slipped square" is a new term to me, too. I just know what works on my boat--two easy pulls and it's released. My dad, an old mariner, was highly amused by my "sailor's all-purpose quick-release knot."

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 07/04/2003 23:23:28

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2003 : 12:32:58

Reef knot, square knot, or the way we tie shoes are basically the same -- right over left, left under, . . .. The bow for our shoes is tied the same way, making a loop for the second part, and using that when you tie the second half of the bow. The idea of the bow is what makes it simple to untie when you need to shake out the reef.

I hope this is clear to you, it is to me, but I haven't been able to get my wife to see it.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2003 : 20:10:17

Don started to say it, "right over left and under", it finishes ,left over right and under. This is what I say to myself everytime I tie a square knot. It just sticks in my head like a bad commercial jingle.With a Reef knot, it's the same thing except; the left over right and under is not the end of the line, but you double the left side the line over and create a loop. This loop, at least the way I have been told, is what makes it a Reef knot instead of a Square knot. Then you pull on the tag end of the loop to release it. Hope this makes sense.
Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

Edited by - shawn on 07/05/2003 20:14:19

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2003 : 23:56:52

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With a Reef knot, it's the same thing except; the left over right and under is not the end of the line, but you double the left side the line over and create a loop. This loop, at least the way I have been told, is what makes it a Reef knot instead of a Square knot. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In his book "The Handbook of Knots", Des Pawson, co-founder of the International Guild of Knot Tyers, says,...

"A very simple binding knot, the Square Knot was traditionally used to tie up a reef(sail) - so it is often called a Reef Knot."

He goes on to describe the Slipped Square Knot which is a Square Knot(Reef Knot) with a loop on one side of the knot. So I guess that this knot would also be called a Slipped Reef Knot.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d924b3127cce8a25f03178820000001610" border=0>

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2003 : 09:03:50

My approach is different... but I wouldn't consider it better. A reef (square) knot is not used. My reason is that a reef knot requires both hands for too much of the process and a good visual of the process.

I have to look at a square knot as I'm making it to avoid a granny and if someone would kindly hold their pinky on it...it would be helpful.

For these reasons, instead of tieing a stopper knot on each side of the gasket, one side is a simple knot to form a loop... you know, those kind that are a real pain to untie if it gets tight. But, who cares, this part is never untied.

When making up the gasket, its then a simple mater of running the other end through the loop ... drawing it snug... and a bow to secure. This is a simple process with can be done fairly easy with one hand but usually requires the second hand for a moment. And, it can be done blind on the other side of the boom or in the dark. Shaking out only requires one hand to pull the bitter, releasing the loop and then fliping the stopper loose of the loop with no visual needed.

I know, I know, a square knot can be released in the dark with one hand... but [knot] as simply....

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2003 : 10:36:44

This just remindes me about the little rope that went into the bar to ask for a drink, and the bartender told him they don't serve his kind here.<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2003 : 10:45:20

Arlyn:<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... instead of tieing a stopper knot on each side of the gasket, one side is a simple knot to form a loop... When making up the gasket, its then a simple mater of running the other end through the loop ... drawing it snug... and a bow to secure. This is a simple process with can be done fairly easy with one hand ... can be done blind on the other side of the boom or in the dark. Shaking out only requires one hand to pull the bitter, releasing the loop and then fliping the stopper loose of the loop ...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>That's very similar to the method I use. I also have the loop on one side of the sail. I have two stopper knots on the other side of the sail. The knot closest to the loop keeps the line from falling out of the sail when not reefed. When reefing, the tail of the line having the two knots is passed under the loose foot of the sail, over the boom, and the end of the line is threaded through the loop. Instead of tying to the loop, the stopper knots are worked through the loop, where one of them acts like a button in a buttonhole. One of the knots is for reefing above the boom, the other allows enough slack in the reef point to pass the line under the boom. I always try to reef above the boom, but if the sail were installed with its bolt rope in the boom, the last knot would still allow me to tie in the reefs.

Having said all that, I usually don't tie in the reef points, I just let the reefed slab hang.

-- Leon Sisson

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Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2003 : 12:36:08

I like that, Leon! And I also generally don't tie up the reef...

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - dave b on 07/06/2003 12:36:35

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Derek Crawford
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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2003 : 12:59:49

Dave - I have a regular footed mainsail...
BTW - you can also use a clove hitch in a "slipped" version.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2003 : 14:25:47

thanks for te advice all! that website is very useful.

Steve
78 C25 SR/FK - Gypsy
<img src="http://www.websdf.com/logo.jpg" border=0>

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Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2003 : 10:23:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Derek: I thought your main was loose-footed... If so, it would seem that tying down the reef should be no problem as long as you don't tie around the boom. But for "tight-footed" rigs like mine, I agree that it's a shaky idea unless the ties are kept really loose. In that case, it's nice to have a flaking system--but I don't.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thats the way I do it Dave... Tie the sail to itself with the loose footed main. No strain on the kringles whatsoever. As for not using the Kringles to tie the sail to the boom??? I can see both sides of the arguement, but have to think that if it were that much of a problem, they would stop putting the holes along the reef point to tie through.

Will have to talk to a sailmaker next time I see him.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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