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to Flemish, or not to Flemish

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 14:35:22

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Of course, he doesn't specify why it is the worst thing, so that each individual can make a personal evaluation. Thanks for sharing, Duane. I, for one, will continue to Flemish.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

JB -
I think he eludes to the "hocks" that can form in a line and that coiling can be a great contributor to it. Personally, I flemish my docklines once a year on the dock. Docklines where we are docked only last about two years anyway, so I don't care if there is a problem with them.

As for the sheets and halyards - I was always taught that a flemmed coil on the deck accumulates crud through rain run off and makes a mark that you'll have to eventually clean up on the deck, plus, laying them out in the sun like that promotes, UV wear. Sounded good to me so I don't do it with halyards or sheets. The sheets get properly coiled and hung below, the halyards get coiled around the cabin top winches.

DW

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 15:16:20

Ah, I didn't pick up on the hocking line of thinking.

I'm with you, Duane, on the two year life for dock lines, plus mine never need to be uncleated. I've seperate sets of sheets for my three foresails, so they get coiled and put in the bag with the sail. My halyards, dousing lines, reef line and topping lift get hung on the cabin top winches. So, the only running rigging line I Flemish on the deck, actually the cabin top, is the boom vang line. This (deck and line) gets washed with a little bleach at least every other week and thoroughly rinsed every week, so it's not been a problem.

UV wear is a problem, but I think I'll try the sunscreen idea someone posted earlier.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 15:21:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Flemish on the deck, actually the cabin top, is the boom vang line. UV wear is a problem, but I think I'll try the sunscreen idea someone posted earlier.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If I ever think of it at the right time, I am going to try the sunscreen idea.....It comes to mind while online and not while onboard.

I use the boomvang line as a extra sail-tie so it gets tucked into the sail cover and isn't seen.
dw

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 07/29/2003 15:22:22

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 15:28:31

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I use the boomvang line as a extra sail-tie so it gets tucked into the sail cover and isn't seen.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Thanks for the great idea! Kills two birds with one stone.

J.B. Manley, Antares '86 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - on

John Mason
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Response Posted - 07/29/2003 : 18:26:30

I've heard that it's not a good idea to flemish the lines also. I can't remember why - maybe shortens the life of the line.

Have you ever stepped on an "un"flemished line on a pitched deck or needed traction on a dock and instead stepped on a loose line? The flemished "mat" has a lot more skid resistance.

There's pros and cons to everything.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Oscar
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Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 08:00:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>To remove hockles, trail the line behind the boat. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Personally, I'd call an exterminator.......<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle> I mean lets get serious, we're talking about the last ten inches of our docklines here. It's not like we're Flemishing/Fleming/Fleshing the whole damn mainsheet or something.......(and if I was from northern Belgium I'd wonder what that had to do with it anyways...)

Oscar
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/LKforumshot.jpg" border=0>
Lady Kay 250 WB #618
In the driveway in Behtlehem, PA ready to go anytime.

Edited by - Oscar on 07/30/2003 08:06:16

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RichardG
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990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 12:52:16

Just curious -- regarding docklines: do you leave the tail on the dock or on deck?

As I rarely need docklines after I leave the dock, and have spare docklines and plenty of misc. backup line onboard the few times I do, I put the spliced end of the dockline around the deck cleats, leave the tails on the dock and thus leave the docklines on the dock when out sailing. The tails are about 6' and get used occasionally when adjusting the boat within the slip (floating dock) for cleaning, maintanence, etc.

If left on a floating dock, are there any alternatives to Flemishing or "cleat wrapping" the tails?

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 13:01:53

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Just curious -- regarding docklines: do you leave the tail on the dock or on deck?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Richard - I leave my dockline tails on the dock, flemished, all the time. Spliced ends get thrown onto the dock to sail. My neighbors are NEVER at the marina, but everyone else at my marina does it the same way -- makes untangling the six to twelve lines very interesting for the first boat back when two or three boats on either sides of the fingers have gone out at the same time. <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

Edited by - Antares on 07/30/2003 13:02:34

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smatda
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Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 16:25:41

I don't Flemish. Rains come and the rope lies in a puddle of water and doesn't drain. Then the green algae and dirt comes and it gets stiff.

Plus there is the time factor. Count all the time you are coiling that rope up over a season...I'd rather put that time into learning how to put an eye splice in three strand instead. An eye splice last a heck of a lot longer than any Flemish coil.

Besides, seeing someone putting in an eye splice says a lot more than a person's sailing ability than any Flemish coil can!!

Steve Matda
1982 C25 #3060
S/V "Dropkick"
Bristol, VA

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Gloss
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Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 18:38:35

since I started this whole discussion, here is what I do.
First of all, in my sailing club we all respect each other's boat, and no power boats are allowed, so no lines get kicked in the water.
I am in a fixed slip on a TVA lake which has fluctuating lake levels. I have the spliced end of the lines for the boat cleats, and the rest of the line around the dock cleat, with the proper cleating method, no extra wraps. the rest of the line is flemished. We often have to change our line lengths. If a member sees someone else's boat in trouble, he adjusts it. We help each other out.
When I cast off I just throw the rope on the dock.
My lake is part of the Tennessee river, with barge, and 50 foot Sea Ray traffic, with constant 2 foot high wakes on the weekend. Fun to sail in, but lots of jarring to a docked boat, my slip faces this melee, so I have snubbers on all of my lines. Spring lines are a must.
If I didn't flemish my lines on the dock, they would be in the way. No place to hang them.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 07/30/2003 : 20:01:05

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> no power boats are allowed,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

AHHHH! Sail boater?s heaven<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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Champipple
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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 08:28:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I don't Flemish. Rains come and the rope lies in a puddle of water and doesn't drain. Then the green algae and dirt comes and it gets stiff. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That was my point too, you just said it better.

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Dave B
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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 09:57:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> no power boats are allowed,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

AHHHH! Sail boater?s heaven<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Ya, but he says they're out there dragging big wakes... <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 10:57:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Ya, but he says they're out there dragging big wakes... <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

And how! Last Sunday a 50' Sea Ray headed me while I was making 5.5 kts on a close reach, and he was making what I guess to be 10 to 15. The wake was a good 4' and pushed the front third of my hull out of the water, and then slammed it down into the top half of the next crest. <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle> Lake Patrol said he saw the top leading edge of my fin before the bow started heading back down. He then took off to have a "discussion" with the Sea Ray's operator.

Unfortunately, our lake has a plethora of these huge cabin cruisers, and NONE of the operators seem to know or care about the rules of the road. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley, Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' The Cherokees, NE Oklahoma

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Dave B
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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 13:01:52

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...Last Sunday a 50' Sea Ray headed me while I was making 5.5 kts on a close reach, and he was making what I guess to be 10 to 15. The wake was a good 4'...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Too bad he didn't cross astern--you could've done some serious surfing! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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Gloss
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Response Posted - 07/31/2003 : 18:53:13

no powerboats allowed in our club. We cannot control, unfortunately what/who uses the Tennessee River/Lake Loudon. Wish we could. At least if we could get rid of the jetskis.
My slip costs me $25/month and 360/year dues. Pretty darn cheap. We also have a stationary lift we can use for 7 bucks per day. You back your boat in there on your trailer, and lift it in the slings to work on it.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

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jwilliams
Captain

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357 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 00:13:42

Hi all,

I admit it, I do flemish my dock line tails.

Why? I like it. It looks neat, you don't trip over the excess line and the lines dry out so I am not bringing mud into the cockpit and foredeck locker.

I also remove my jibsheets from the roller furler, coil all sail control lines and hang them from the mast cleats under my sail cover. I have a boom vang plus a 2x wire purchase that I detach from the mast plate and reattach under the sail cover for storage. Nothing hangs down from the sail cover. All lines are covered, except the mainsheet. It is coiled and hung from the split backstay fiddle block. (I have a spare, so occasionally one goes home for the wash and fabric softener treatment.)

Hey Jude has a cover that goes over all the teak and companionway. I have covers that snap on over the two oval cubbies in the cockpit, and covers for all four winches. The tiller gets one too.

Should you do the same? Up to you, big guy. But for me it just feels right. Of course, still spit shine my dress shoes every time I wear them. "Attention to detail" they taught me in jump school.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 00:28:44

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Hey Jude has a cover that goes over all the teak and companionway. I have covers that snap on over the two oval cubbies in the cockpit, and covers for all four winches. The tiller gets one too.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Sounds like great "dock Appeal". I think a boats presentation at the dock says a lot about how the owner takes care of their possessions.

I personally go out of my way to make sure my boats "dock Appeal" is the best it can be at all times.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d935b3127cce8ab87c3b48020000000010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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MattL
Admiral

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990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 02:00:53

The controvercy at our docks had to do with cleats or rings. Myself, I prefer cleats. The pro-ring croud was saying that the cleats are a tripping hazard. I say the rings if on top are more of a hazard, and if on the side could hole your boat. I have cleats by my boat. One whole wing has rings that our club harbor master put on last year. This years guy hasn't made it an issue.
In regards to flemmish or not(is that a capitol F like the country, or small f like mucus?) I like to have the dock lines long enough to go to the boat with a little left over incase there is some fluctuation in water level. Our lake stays fairly constant so the lines do not need much adjustment. I am sad to say I have mine wrapped around the cleats. Everett, the 3 year old, is the rope person. Actually I think he likes horses more than boats. The boy HAS to flemmish coil any rope he sees on the dock. He saw it somewhere and it is in his brain that that is the way dock lines are supose to be. I tell you when mom is waiting for you on shore to go home and you got this little kid with you that has to stop at each boat to straighten up the lines you get it from all ends. Fraied or Knot.

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 10:51:13

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...Everett, the 3 year old, is the rope person. The boy HAS to flemmish coil any rope he sees on the dock. He saw it somewhere and it is in his brain that that is the way dock lines are supose to be.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I love it!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

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PZell
Admiral

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548 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2003 : 15:41:47

I think in all this discussion the point was missed: It is not good for modern braided line in the long run to Flemish coil because of its construction. It is fine for 3 strand. And there lies the quandry because it is a 'neat' looking coil. However braided line is quite
pervasive. Many 'traditional' line handling methods and knots are
not efficient with the modern ropes.

Paul C25FK Sparky
'PZ' W7JVY KFS/KTK/KLB/KOK/WNU/KPH/WCC/VAI/VAJ

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