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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Best item to buy to improve performance?

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Bill Sloane
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/07/2003 : 14:57:24

Hit the start line last night for Wednesday night races, 'D' class in second position. I was happy with start as my last sailing race had been some 25 years previous. Watched every boat behind me pass me on the first windward leg like I was dragging a sea anchor. My boat is a standard rig swing keel C-25, 1978 vintage. In looking at all the other boats, really the biggest thing that stood out was the age of my main sail. I believe it is original. My thought is that if there is one thing I could buy that would improve my performance most dramatically, it would probably be a new main sail. Next, a new genoa. Any thoughts on this.

I noticed alot of fully battened mains too. Is it allowable to do this on the C-25?

Any thoughts or opinions appreciated.

Bill
'Suede Shoes' C-25 SR/SK No. 496
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d837b3127cce89df6a2325840000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 16:42:14

Yes, Fully Battened mainsails are allowable in the class. You might also want to look at adjustments that are allowable within your own PHRF rules and regs, but not the class. For example your weight and weight distribution.

Did you leave the table on board? What about the stove? Did you move your anchor off the bow and into the cabin? Was any other unnecessary weight taken off the boat? Did you leave the motor on the back of the boat? Depending on your local PHRF rules you may be able to move or remove many of these items. You can also, in many cases, bring your keel up when going downwind. (be careful here though, some areas make a more definitive distinction between centerboards and swing keels.)

A new main, lighter weight, newer cloth will definitely be beneficial. A few other things you might want to look at, depending on the wind you had:

Was your rig tuned for the weather at hand? Looser in light air, tighter in heavier?

Was your bottom clean, free from algae, seaweed and other muck ?

Did you measure yourself against another Catalina 25, or another similarly rated boat? If not, maybe they are supposed to be flying past you. Sometimes too, various makes and models perform better in different wind conditions. There is also the possibility that you were getting bad air off there sails. In this case, tack away as soon as possible to get a clean breeze. This happens a lot at the start, a boat directly to windward, or ahead and to leeward can “gas” you to the point of almost stalling.

DW

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 17:16:07

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Was your bottom clean, free from algae, seaweed and other muck ?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I just went over to the lake today for the sole purpose of scrubbing the bottom, keel and rudder, in anticipation of the races this Saturday.

Duane's suggestions are all good, but that one is by far the most important. Nobody can win with a slow boat.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

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Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 18:18:11

Bill... I don't race our C-25, but I'll offer the suggestion that if you were trying to point with those guys with the crisp, full-battened mains, that may have been a big part of your problem. If the wind wasn't too heavy, your "full" sails could work for you if you don't try to point too high and go for speed at a slight cost in distance. (In the process, it stands to reason you might find cleaner air.) In heavier air, you're probably toast with those sails.

A clean bottom definitely is a prerequisite to competitive speed overall, but good sail shape is the prerequisite to being able to compete on the windward leg.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 19:14:21

Best item to buy to improve performance...hmmmm?...I got it!

Skipper Russell Coutts...

<img src="http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/sailing/03/27/ac.trophy.tour/story.coutts.trophy.ap.jpg" border=0>

Hey, it worked for Swiss billionaire Ernesto Bertarelli and the Alinghi team.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

bnpirate
1st Mate

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33 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 19:22:13

Bill,
What size headsail were you flying?
when i bought my boat this year it came with only a 110 jib
all the other c25s were flying 150's and walking away from me.
I bought an old 150 from someone in the marina and am now competitive although I could use some new sails for better shape.
Brian
84 sk/sr

Edited by - on

Bill Sloane
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 20:40:21

I was flying a 150 head sail in winds about 5 - 15 knots. Going to weather, we were over about 20 - 25 degrees. Just me and my son. Maybe could have used more weight. All my regular stuff was on the boat, i.e. stove, motor, water, beer, peanuts. Some of the other boats had mylar sails or sails with a bunch of black lines in them - looked real high tech. I was the only C-25 out there. But next week, Steve, a fellow South Sounder with a C-25 said he would race.

Definitely need to clean the bottom. Swantown Marina water is pretty darn scummy in August.

Bill.

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2003 : 22:51:49

Bill: 5-15 is a big range, but even at 15 those heel angles also suggest sagging sails. Newer sails will be flatter in 10-15 knots and above, making more efficient airfoils with less "power" (heeling forces) and better pointing. For the main, do you have a vang? There are other flattening tools, but a vang is probably the most important one.

You don't need mylar to at least get into the game--you need decent shape, which you can get with dacron and full battens. IMHO, the sheeting angles to the rail-mounted track on a C-25 don't allow for that much advantage from a mylar genny, but I'm sure some will disagree. I just question the ROI.

Also for good pointing in a decent breeze, you want the forestay to be pretty tight--do you have a backstay adjuster? If you do, keep the rig loose and yank down down the adjuster when going upwind in a good breeze. (Release the adjuster downwind.) If not, keep your fore/backstay tensions fairly tight (so you can't wave the backstay more than a foot). It'll help with that heeling.

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 11:26:29

Bill: Clean bottom, yes! When I sold you the boat, I knew that her sails would be okay for cruising for awhile, but that they were WAY too tired for racing. Shoes needs a new main, and very likely a new headsail as well before you can be competitive on the race course.

I just put a new, single reefed main on Encore! this summer and my upwind performance has REALLY improved. I got a boat show special from Banks Sails in Portland. It's 6.5 oz. for $607. I recommend 'em, and the price is right, but more during high season. Winter is the time to have sails built.

I'd sell you my old main (w 2 reefs), but I think I will keep it for cruising, etc.....

Good luck,

Gary Bruner
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

Bill Sloane
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 11:28:41

Dave: Good information. I don't have a back stay adjuster. Guess I'll just tighten her down. In my early days when I was racing one designs, our rig used to be tight as a drum. I do have a boom vang. One thing I have not figured out on the C-25 rig is the downhaul. I have one cleat mounted low on the mast in the sail track that I was using to cleat down my Cunningham rope. The cleat is too high for the boom downhaul. I was thinking about getting a second cleat and mounting it lower on the mast. In the one designs I used to sail, I would tighten the downhaul with pulleys until I curled the mast into a soft 'C'. Don't think that will happen on my C-25.

Fully battened Dacron sounds like the right way to go. What is the best source for those? Is there a used market for that kind of sail?

Thanks,

Bill
'Suede Shoes' C-25 SR/SK No. 496

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d837b3127cce89df6a2325840000001010" border=0>

PS: ROI means?

Edited by - on

Dave B
Admiral

Members Avatar

Mali
863 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 11:35:54

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
PS: ROI means?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
O God, I'm so sorry--I regressed to a business acronym! I won't do it again--honest! Please forgive me! I beg of you! I'll be good! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle, 1985 C-25 #5032 "Passage" SR/FK/Dinette/Honda in SW CT

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 12:05:15

PS: ROI means? - Bill


"Return on Investment"

Buzz Maring
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>
~~Freya~~
C-25 SK/SR #68

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 13:56:21

Hi Bill,
Were you the lone Cat 25 out racing? If you haven't already, you should contact Steve Worcester - 352-9283. The race scorer. You need to register and get a handicap. They need to know your info to get you into the race results properly.

And don't worry about the other boats walking away from you. A lot of them are faster, but based on the handicaps, they owe you a lot of time.

John Mason
<img src="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jamason/ali.jpg" border=0>
pronounced "Ali Paroosa"
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Bill Sloane
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 14:58:20

Good to hear from you Gary. Your new sails sound like a bargain. By the way, after my little mishaps stepping the mast, I through bolted the mast step with SS bolts and large washers and blocked out the height difference on the ceiling of the cabin with some wood. Also built a wood mast support crutch to support it initially. Went very smooth. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

John: I think I was the only C-25 out there. It was my first race. I will register with South Sound Sailing Society and call up Steve. From Dave Bristle's discussion earlier in this thread, my main sail really is blown out. I doubt even Catalina expected the original mainsail to last 25 years. Catalina just didn't know how cheap C-25 owners could be . . . .

Bill
'Suede Shoes' C-25 SR/SK No. 496

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 14:58:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> one thing I could buy that would improve my performance most dramatically<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I vote for new bottom paint, assuming the old paint is not keeping stuff from growing down there.

A mask, snorkle, fins and a brush might be less expensive in the short term, but certainly would take more effort (although think of the money you could save in health club membership fees! <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>).

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2003 : 17:22:52

I agree... nothing's as quick as a slik bottom. All the other goodies would also contribute more to a bottom well groomed.

Val on Calista #3936

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

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