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How to handle bad wind and no engine?

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trent
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/05/2003 : 11:27:10

My brother and I went out last night and ran into a situation. The sail itself was almost perfect but coming back in the engine coughed and I smelled gas. The fitting that goes on the end of the fuel line had broken at a bad place. I resumed sailing to get to the dock but in the cove where my dock is the wind got weird, swirly is the only way I can think to describe it. I couldn't keep headway and lost steerage all of the time and actually had to dive off and guide the boat away from another dock (lost a stanchion in that manuver). I finally managed to McGuyver the fuel line back on to the engine and we got in about 2 in the morning. Here are the questions:

1. Are there situations that you cannot sail out of such as these "swirls"? I maintain that Dennis Conner couldn't have made the boat respond.

2. What kind of emergency kit should I be carrying? Obviously I'm going to get fuel line, hose clamps and several of those fittings for the fuel line. Would a paddle have done any good on a boat this big?

I feel embarrassed because I've been sailing for years and thought I could sail out of this one...

Thanks for any advice - Trent

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 12:09:01

Hi Trent,

Welcome to the forum. I sail out of Masthead on Grand Lake, and we experience the same swirling wind patterns and dead air in our cove, as well. There are many stories, thankfully none of mine yet, about people having to swim their boats in for one reason or another. No one can sail a boat without steerage way.

I carry a very large canoe paddle on board as an emergency tiller and auxillary power source. Also, the rudder can be used as an auxillary power source for short distances by swinging the tiller back and forth in wide arcs.

Where around Tulsa do you sail?

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

trent
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 12:20:44

Greetings,

I sail out of Oologah and usually the wind is pretty predictable even in that cove but with the weather shifting I guess it wasn't my night.

I think that I will find a good long paddle or two because I think if we'd each had a paddle we could have made a difference. I attempted to swim the boat around a little but the windage was too great even with bare poles.

I'm lucky the boat didn't suffer much and that I was able to rig the fuel line (which consisted of my brother holding it all the way to the dock) so we didn't have to anchor and spend the night there.

-Trent

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 12:39:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I sail out of Oologah...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I suspect those docks would be tricky to depart or return under sail in even the most perfect of conditions; pretty close quarters.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...so we didn't have to anchor and spend the night there.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
As long as you have enough beer, being stuck on the hook (figuratively) isn't the worst thing to have happen. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 19:58:23

"...enough beer ..."

Or rum!

So I thought, in the spares kit one might keep some rum aboard in case the unexpected night on the hook occurs anyway.
(After exhaustiong the proper spares like hose clamps, duct tape, plastic ties, etc.)

Edited by - on

Doug
Captain

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USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2003 : 20:18:19

I carry extra fittings for the fuel hose. A spare hose would be nice. On our last long trip the valves in the rubber pump failed and stopped fuel flow. I had to pay half a boat unit for a new hose at a "boat parts, books, ice cream and coffee shop." I also carry an extra, unopened bottle of Stoli tucked away as a "thanks for towing me in/ sorry I hit your boat/ we're stuck here until it blows over" tool.

Doug - #1913 Noeta

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2003 : 00:39:02

There was a thread on building a 'Yuloh' or long sculling oar.. which is used as a primary propulsion throughout the orient, sometimes on good-sized vessels.

Supposed to be good for a couple knots and just might be the ticket.
A google search on Yuloh will yield several articles on building and using them.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2003 : 07:04:55

I share the concern of most . I am lookings for a small(2 hp or so) outboard that can remain preserved onboard. Were I sail if is common for the wing to just quit. The 2 knot current does not .

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2003 : 12:40:15

Quote:"I share the concern of most . I am lookings for a small(2 hp or so) outboard that can remain preserved onboard."

Several thoughts...

1) I'd not look forward to wrestling the regular outboard off the mount while in the water (without a davit anyway, and then I still wouldn't be thrilled about it).

2) By the time you got the main engine off the mount and the 'auxillary' engine on the mount, you might be in trouble anyway.

3) I don't know if a 2hp outboard would effectively buck a 2kt current in a C25.

I suppose in spite of all the above, having a spare available would be lots better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2003 : 16:59:01

It wasn't clear from your post whether there are other people/boats/services near your dock. I hope you carry a VHF radio onboard so you can call for help. I also carry my cell phone. Most folks can call for help either on the radio or on the phone. Sounds to me like you needed someone to give you a tow -- or to come out on the dock and catch a line.

Brooke

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2003 : 19:50:30

Hi Trent,

I experienced a similar situation sailing with a friend several years ago. Another time with my wife our swing keel cable broke as we were coming in. In both cases all turned out okay but only after alot of work and anxiety.

This has prompted us to always take our dinghy and its motor. In our case we use an old Sears Gamefisher 2 stroke which weighs next to nothing. If we have trouble (like the time we spun our prop on our Yamaha 9.9) we drop a hook, rig this little light motor to our swim ladder and limp home. I guess we could also have tried to tow our boat with the dinghy? Although it is light it is a 5 hp and has managed to keep us out of trouble, even in bad weather. It is never fun to have to move motors and gear when the weather is bad and equipment is not working, but it is alot better than not having an alternative.

Chris Hunsicker
Panama City FL
Moonglade
80 C25 #2126 sr/sk
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d636b3127cce8c9d4c83e7890000002010" border=0>

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2003 : 20:44:38

if you have two anchors you can always move a boat the way they did in the old days - by kedge. Put one anchor out on a long line. Pull in the rode until you are sitting at 3 to one scope. Put the other anchor out on a long line. Bring in the first, pull in the rode on the 2nd until you are sitting at 3 to 1 scope. Repeat as necessary.

In an emergency, if you have no dinghy, you can swim the anchors out by floating them on just about anything - boogie board, cooler, empty fuel can, etc.

I'm not sure I would have done this in your case, but it's good to know the technique.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 12:12:26

Hmmmmm... I store our kayak paddle on the C-25... Wonder what it'd do in flat-calm water. Of course, not much in the 2-3 knot tidal currents that run through the entrance to our boat club.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 14:41:21

1. Are there situations that you cannot sail out of such as these "swirls"? I maintain that Dennis Conner couldn't have made the boat respond.

Yes, you were in one! One evening this summer I watched a friend tow his boat onto its mooring with his dinghy in no wind (his boat has no auxiliary power). The first concern when the motor quits should be safety of yourself, crew and OPB's (other people's boats--they're the expensive ones floating nearby in the marina). In your case, the wind turning fluky was unpredictable. But the anchor then becomes your best friend and if you're in danger of swinging in close quarters, two anchors (bow and stern). Then you have time to figure out your options, (eg., swim to a nearby dock with a couple lines and pull the boat over; swim to a nearby boat with lines and raft up; call the Harbormaster or anyone you can think of who can help). Embarassment or feeling foolish is never an excuse for not taking appropriate action on a boat.

2. What kind of emergency kit should I be carrying? Obviously I'm going to get fuel line, hose clamps and several of those fittings for the fuel line. Would a paddle have done any good on a boat this big?

Someone already said it--the rudder can be used as an oar, but if my near-misses of the mooring ball are any indication, not very effectively. I keep a small, cheap inflatable dinghy on board in case I want to go ashore and don't want to tow my main dinghy. That might be a useful addition to your tool kit.

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 17:27:11

Do you have a VHF onboard. Could you ask for assistance from other local boaters. Spare parts Don't leave home without them. How deap was the water. I have used my boat hook to pole myself in. No dink ?

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2003 : 21:39:07

Hi Trent, in situations such as you describe, the best thing to do is to stop as soon as you detect a problem with your auxilliary, drop the anchor and solve your motor issue. you said that you discovered that the fuel line was leaking. Some motors have a presurized fuel system forcing gas into the carb by pressurizing the fuel tank. I don't think there are many of these around any more. I think most today use a fuel pump and if there is a cut in the rubber hose the pump will pull in a lot of air and not much gas. The thing to do while you are anchored besides getting out the scotch, crackers and cheese, is to get a sharp knife bring the fuel line and motor connector on board (don't try to do it over the side, it is hard to recover parts that have gone into the deep) just cut off the bad hose and reconnect where the rubber is still good. Once the motor is running reliably, you can sail again or just head in.

I hope the stanchion can be fixed. Once I caught my shorts on a stanchion and ended up head down as the shorts ripped and put me in the drink.

John V. Nin Bimash II
77 C25 sk/sr #153

Edited by - on

trent
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 10:55:10

Thanks for all of the great advice. In answer to some of the questions I do have a VHF on board but it was 1 in the morning on a Thursday night so there was nobody at the marina. My brother has a cell phone but of course didn't have it with him.

The fuel line was just barely repairable with what I had on board, the fitting sheared off clean so it wasn't an issue of just leaking.

I think in the end that I'll add a long paddle and another anchor (and maybe a bottle of whisky) to the list of emergency items for the old girl.

I attempted to swim the boat in but didn't make much of a difference but I wasn't rigged right.

My biggest fear is hitting someone else's boat, I dinged the dock maybe but I don't think that I actually contacted anyone else's boat.

-Trent
'83 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 12:05:04

Hi Trent,

You've received several really good thoughts and suggestions already. So, I'll simply add two. First, as suggested before, your anchor is your best buddy when this sort of thing happens. Enough cannot be said for being able to deploy and set the anchor quickly and effectively. So, practice, practice, practice.

Second, take a look at the Lin and Larry Pardey website. These two interesting people have sailed more than 100,000 miles on small sailboats that never have had any engine at all. Their first sailboat was only 24'7" lenth on deck (voyaged 45,000+ miles). Their second (and present) sailboat - Taleisin, 29'6" length on deck - has been voyaged more than 65,000 miles. Working around a harbor or marina with oars or a skulling oar is a wonderful skill to have.

http://landlpardey.com

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 12:43:31

Trent:

"I think in the end that I'll add a long paddle and another anchor (and maybe a bottle of whisky) to the list of emergency items for the old girl."

May I recommend the C25 bilge as a perfect place (temperature, movement, etc) to store wine? As you may have read recently, red wine has a molecule which promotes longevity. Another reason for having a wine cellar on board (but only for after hours use)

Dave on "Wood Duck" (#2616)

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 21:48:07

Trent,

I'm the one that posted about the Yuloh, the chinese sculling oar. My buddy Paul and I both made one for our 25's.

In an emergency like the one that you described (and I had one recently where my engine died and wouldn't start) the yuloh will get you into your slip against a 1.5kt current and some wind.

They are easy to make and to deploy (less than 5 minutes to operation). I follow the advice that you could drop hook, deploy your yuloh, pick up the hook and scull into you slip.

Has anyone really paddled a C25 for any distance, using short paddles or even oars? Good luck. To practice with my yuloh, I scull from the slip out of the marina and out to the end of our channel and back. That is 2 miles. I do it by myself. I would not do it in strong winds. But in an emergency coming back to the marina, I could beat up to the marina entrance (where we are it is dead into the wind in the afternoon), with the Yuloh deployed but lifted out of the water, make a quick turn, drop the main, take one tie around the sail to keep it from pushing to leeward, and Yuloh home the 200 yards to the slip.

I have practiced that and have confidence that I can do it safely singlehanded.

So, Trent, this is a pitch for you to consider the Yuloh. Mine is 15 feet long, comes apart, the loom or handle, and the blade. There is a wood piece that goes between the uprights of the stern pulpit, just above the rudder. This is the pivot, with the ball. The lanyard connects between the winch cleats, and connects to the loom handle. I stow it in the quarter berth. Yes, you have to assemble it. But, deploying takes 5 min. with practice.

Best,

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
Half Moon Bay, CA

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2003 : 23:25:46

Jim,

For ease of use, can you paste the link to the previous forum, an instructional website, or construction instructions?

Thanks,

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

SEA DOG
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 06:53:43

Hi, you can scull a C-25 very easy, and very fast in light air.
Give it a try and pratice sculling. There is nothing to buy everything already installed. It is also impressive to sail in and out of the dock with just a little pratice.

Seadog FK/TR 4232

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2003 : 10:02:50

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For ease of use, can you paste the link to the previous forum, an instructional website, or construction instructions? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2497

Here's another link.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/6383/yuloh2.htm

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

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sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 17:55:59

Bill thanks for sharing the link to the Pardeys website, made for some good reading!

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 22:10:56

Sorry - it's a tad long but:

I had my own "too much wind, no motor" situation last weekend. Just wanted to do a brief run on the river in front of our marina. Only hoisted the main, left the jib in the bag and, because I was on the shallow side of the river, I decided not to bother cranking the keel down (I keep it up while in the slip as there is not 5 ft at low tide.) Winds were 5-10 and running downwind (toward the bridge)was great.

I went to come about and suddenly learned a whole lot about leeway with the keel up. Between dropping the main, trying to lower the motor mount (which didn't want to go down) and trying to start the outboard (which didn't want to start), I ran out of time and drifted sideways into the concrete bridge. The mast (the shroud really) connected with the bridge just above the spreader and after the hull finally halted its sideways movement, she stayed level and continued bumping against the bridge while I finally got the motor mount down, the engine started and motored away.

Very disappointed in myself as a captain. I've got 6 years of power boat experience and never got in that kind of situation before. I know now I should have 1.) lowered the keel and sailed in the deeper section of the river, 2.) recognized the leeway effect much sooner, 3. not gotten so close to a fixed object, 4. dropped the mainsail sooner/faster. If I had been in the deeper part of the river, I would have had enough mast clearance to miss the high rise section of the bridge altogether and just drifted between the bridge supports.

I honestly don't know if I would have had the time but in retrospect, dropping the anchor should been attempted so I could then get the motor down and started. It was only about 6-7 feet deep so I would not have needed a lot of rode to halt the movement downwind.

The thing that bothers me the most is that I've never had a problem lowering the motor mount, and the outboard has been starting on the 1st or 2nd pull every time(especially since I had it professionally tuned last month). But for some reason, in my hurry to make it happen, the damn thing didn't want to go down and then the motor just didn't want to start. Took (I think) 9 pulls before it started.

Oh well, luckily no harm done (some tape rubbed off the spreader boot, some scrapes but no dents on the mast) and now I've got a story to tell but it sure took the glow off an otherwise enjoyable sailboat ride.

If it's not too painful to recall, I'd be up for hearing other "wish I hadn't done that" sailing stories. (Sort of like the comfort in watching a professional tennis match and seeing that they too double fault on their serves, hit 'em out of bounds, etc..)

Steve

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 10:37:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Very disappointed in myself as a captain<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve:

Don't feel bad. If you've never made a stupid mistake, then you're not sailing enough! I have my own list. That's what makes you a better sailor! You learn from your mistakes.

Edited by - on

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