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Question Re swing keel in blue water

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jerryTN
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/12/2003 : 22:15:45

I have just acquired a 1980 C-25 SK. My question is whether or not a swing keel is stable enough to not bash the keel trunk in seas that are causing some serious pitching.

The situation is that I plan to take a Bahamas trip next year and don't know whether to take my tried and true, full-keel South Coast 23 (very seaworthy but limited space) or whether to take the more roomy C-25. Has anyone had any experience with coastal or blue water sailing in rough seas using the swing keel?

Thanks in advance,
jerry

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2003 : 22:51:34

I take it you've been through the Stream... Anyone who hasn't should think twice before responding.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/12/2003 : 23:34:16

jerry,

This past May and June I sailed my 1979 Catalina 25 swing keel single handed from Cocoa Beach to the Abacos islands in the Bahamas. I didn't feel that the swing keel system was the single most significant safety issue that I needed to be concerned about. I would say that much more important issues included my personal level of experience, skill, knowledge, and preparation. Also, being cautious and conservative in choosing what weather to be out there in.

As for things that I think most affected how safe my C-25 was as a boat for that trip, I'd include design, build quality, maintenance, additional cruising equipment, and over all condition. By the time I left on the trip, I had gone over the entire boat, verifying its readiness in every detail.

Just to help put the wear and tear of such a trip in context, look at it this way. Typical pattern of use for a Catalina 25 might be sailing, what, 10 miles a couple of times a month? Maybe 250 miles a year? And that would usually be in deliberately selected mild conditions, may be 5 to 10 knot winds, 6" to 1' waves on inland waters. On the trip to the Abacos, my GPS logged about 750 nautical miles. The average sailing conditions once I left the Intercoastal Waterway were more like 10 to 20 knots and 2' to 3' seas. So I figure the whole trip was probably equivalent to maybe three years of normal wear and tear. I had no significant (major impact on plans or need outside help) equipment failures. The equipment problems were more on the minor annoyance scale: motor tilt pin vibrated out, sink faucet dripped, hairline crack in a halyard clutch, 3" tear in a batten pocket, dirt in the generator fuel system, anchor not setting on first try, that sort of trivial stuff.

I'm rambling. Back to your question about the swing keel. I installed a pivot bushing in my keel to eliminate sloppy movement, and thus shock loads in rough water (a.k.a. "keel clunk"). I also reinforced the hull around the pivot area, at the aft end of the trunk, and along the length of the trunk where it meets the bottom of the hull. My keel winch, cable, attachment hardware, and pivot hardware were all less than two years old.

As for the boat pitching in waves enough to "bash" the keel trunk, I didn't experience that at all. The largest, steepest waves I encountered (although briefly) were severe enough to alternately barely submerge the bow, and to lift the forward half of the boat out of the water back to maybe the front of the keel (I'm estimating -- it's not like I was hanging over the side to take measurements). When the bow came down off one of those, walls of spray shot maybe ten feet high on both sides of the boat. At that point, the interior was getting unusually noisy, but it was just water hitting hull sounds, and some creaking and groaning from the interior liner and main bulkhead area, stored gear moving around, and the sound of my newly adopted Bahamian kitten meowing, but not the sound of important things being severely damaged.

I wouldn't hesitate to take my Catalina 25 back to the Bahamas again in good weather. As an aside, my Catalina 25 was one of the three smallest foreign flagged sailboats I saw in the Bahamas. I spotted one other C-25, and a MacGregor 26x(!), both anchored in Marsh Harbour.

-- Leon Sisson

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2003 : 23:51:13

I think there a couple of 'swingers' on this board that have cruised the Bahamas without incident. They can certainly give you a better perspective on the crossing. I've also read cruise logs of crossings in Potter 19's etc. Really prudent? Not sure.

The above said, I think the key to a safe passage (applies to any passage) is having enough time to not be in a hurry and feel constrained to depart on a marginal forecast.

This seems to be the single biggest mistake cruisers make, even on bigger boats. If you gotta wait a week... or two... you gotta wait.

Arranging to make the trip (any trip) with a couple 'buddy boats' can also provide more security and safety than going it alone.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/13/2003 : 05:32:49

Leon: you are my hero!

Brooke

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/13/2003 : 08:31:17

Jerry,

Welcome to the forum... and welcome to ownership of a C25...

I've known Jerry for several years, sailed with him during the Winter Cruise in Pensacola in '01. Was scheduled to make the crossing with him to Western Bahamas this last spring but I had to cancel...

Jerry has a story to tell... about aquiring his C25 by salvage... (I've not heard it) This group enjoys an interesting story...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2003 : 09:26:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Leon: you are my hero!

Brooke
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'll second that! Way too cool.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000002010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2003 : 13:35:48

Although I haven't taken Silver Girl across the stream, I have skippered a Beneteau 461 across from Lauderdale to the Bahamas. When we tied up at Lucaya Beach, I ran into the owner/skipper (sold his business to G.M. and retired at the ripe age of 46) of a custom 56 foot motoryacht who, along with his family, had been so terrified by the crossing, that he intended to hire a captain and crew to return his vessel to Florida. He, his wife and kids were flying home.

I've taken Silver Girl offshore from NY to Block Island and in spite of some very heavy swells, never felt the least bit insecure but the stream is another matter. I wouldn't ever take a swinger anywhere offshore simply because it isn't designed for it, although arguably, yes it could and has be done. As far as crossing the stream in a Catalina 25, even aboard my fin keel model, I would worry about the integrity of the "to hulls", rigging, hull to deck joint, hull/liner arrangement and outboard auxilliary (dunk goes the motor), since the vessel simply wasn't designed for that kind of work.

I've owned Silver Girl since she was new in '83 and have the utmost confidence in her construction and believe that she is way overbuilt for the kind of sailing she was marketed for, but she wasn't designed or built to cross the stream. And I wouldn't tempt fate by exceeding the designer's scantilngs.

It's great to have justified confidence in the fact that one's boat is somewhat overbuilt for the type of sailing that it's usually used for, but that extra margin should only be reserved for 'unexpected' conditions, not called upon as a baseline for safe offshore passages, since if conditions deteriorate beyond your expectations (and the boat's ultimate breaking point); you're swimming.

Mark, Silver Girl '83, lead fin keel, tall rig, traditional, #3744

Edited by - oldsalt on 09/13/2003 13:40:49

Edited by - oldsalt on 09/13/2003 13:44:30

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John V.
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559 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 20:33:00

Dave,

I wanted to remind you of Ted Turner's comments re inland lakes sailing. He had long dispariged great lakes sailors as not having to face the same challenge as "blue water" sailors. When Mr. Turner finally had an opportunity to sail in a Chicago-Mac race he was treated to a good old great lakes storm, and in the 30 ft seas he was heard to say "I hereby retract an previous comments I have made about inland sailing" (a paraphrase)

I have sailed my C25 in 6-7 ft seas in the north channel. The keel will stay put if you are under sail as the side forces will put enough pressure on it. However if you are motoring directly into anything over about 5 ft. the keel may swing and bump. My solution is if you must motor directly into heavy seas in a C25 SK bring the keel up. I would not take any course but directly into the wind. Any course even mildly quarting the keel should be down but if the boat is rolling rather than pitching the keel won't be banging around.

Having sailed in Long Island sound and on the Atlantic off Cape Cod I have experienced ocean swells and can compare them to Great Lakes swells. Ocean swells have a longer frequency than Great Lakes swells. I think what Dave is talking about is the effect of waves against the current of the gulf stream, making them much more like the steep and higher frequency waves of the Lakes.

In defense of inland sailors, we face many of the same perils as our salt water brothers and sisters. Don't forget it was a 60 ft wave that took the Edmund Fitzgerald to the bottom of Lake Superior.

John V. Nin Bimash II
77 C25 sk/sr #153

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jerryTN
Deckhand

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20 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 21:22:26

Thank all of you who have offered advice. I'll have to mull this problem over a few months before I decide.

If I still have a question, I'll probably drop back to the smaller but sturdier SC 23. However, I sure like the space in the C25!

Again thanks.

jerry

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 21:56:47

This afternoon when I backed "Even Chance" out of her slip in order to turn her bow around to the NE in preparation for Hurricane Isabel, a woman on a neighboring boat asked me if I was heading out. "Sure," I said, "I thought it would be a good week to sail to Bermuda." Her horrified look lasted a good five seconds before she realized I was kidding.

Brooke

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 22:12:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Dave,

I wanted to remind you of Ted Turner's comments re inland lakes sailing. He had long dispariged great lakes sailors as not having to face the same challenge as "blue water" sailors. When Mr. Turner finally had an opportunity to sail in a Chicago-Mac race he was treated to a good old great lakes storm, and in the 30 ft seas he was heard to say "I hereby retract an previous comments I have made about inland sailing" (a paraphrase)

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
John, I've spent many years on the Great Lakes--particularly Michigan and Superior, and know some of the worst conditions, although not from being under sail in them (thank goodness). I also remind people that on most of the Great Lakes, there're very few places to hide when things get nasty. I have all due respect...

My comments about the Gulf Stream come from discussions with people who have crossed it, and from reading... Not only can you get strong winds opposing its considerable current, but the Stream creates its own weather--whipping up nasty squals when no other weather patterns suggest trouble. Much of the time, it has its own cloud pattern on the clearest days. (I've seen it.) With a little luck, crossing it can be uneventful. With a little less luck, it can be terrifying. It's a phenomenon unique in boating, and like each of the Great Lakes, worthy of considerable respect.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 22:30:55

Jerry, If you are willing to risk the boat I say go for it. I have made the crossing to west end numerous times as a kid. While the boat we were on was a blue water boat, we almost always traveled in the company of others. There are many things that can and do happen when not in the sight of land. I think the boat is capable, however be prepared for the what ifs. If traveling with others then get off your boat and on to another. If not call the coast guard an don the life preserver. The water temps are warm enough that hypothermia won't be an issue. Just remember the cardinal rule. PICK YOU WEATHER. It can only get worse, Tom.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2003 : 23:45:05

Re: "Leon: you are my hero!", and "I'll second that! Way too cool." Gosh, you guys are makin' me blush<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> But it really was an incredible adventure. I was never totally outside of my comfort level, and never felt in way over my head, but I sure wasn't ever bored either!

Re: "... the key to a safe passage (applies to any passage) is having enough time to not be in a hurry and feel constrained to depart on a marginal forecast. This seems to be the single biggest mistake cruisers make, even on bigger boats. If you gotta wait a week ... or two ... you gotta wait." and " ... Just remember the cardinal rule. PICK YOUR WEATHER..." This can not be over emphasized. No matter what boat you decide to go on, it's very important to understand the weather you may be facing, and its implications for your safety.

Every person has their own level of risk tolerance. Be sure you accurately understand what yours is, and how to avoid exceeding it.

-- Leon Sisson

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