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Official designations for racing purposes

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/22/2003 : 22:19:13

Following this years Nationals... some discussion followed about dealing with the design differences between the c/b and w/k models. Just prior to my summer cruise... I did an exhaustive web search to compare rankings of the two boats.

One observation from that effort was the frustration of sorting out the two boats. A myriad assortment of names are being applied to the two models which offers enough confusion as to make the numbers far less applicable than should be possible.

One of our National Association objectives is as follows,

"Promoting design class racing under uniform rules and regulations which will test the skills of the skipper and crew."

I'd like to see an official designation system applied to the two boats that should be observed when entering one of the boats in a race. These race results are often posted and contribute toward an understanding of a uniform handicap.... but only if the boat can be identified.

For example, a great many results only list a boat as a C250 hence there is no way to tell which model raced without personal knowledge of the sail number.

Some, have keel or k which I'm guessing is wing keel but more often denotes to most racers, a fin keel.

Others use simply wing.

Others use center board, sometimes c/b.

Still others use w/b or water ballast.

Often used were c/b or w/k.

I don't recall any postings which used "fixed keel" which is the descriptive word in our racing rules.

Catalina refers to the two models as wing keel and water ballast.

From our Association rules are these words.

C. KEEL

1. Keels may be either retractable (centerboard) or fixed. In either case, they shall be as supplied by the manufacturer. They shall remain unmodified in composition, size, and shape. Refinishing the surface of the keel shall not be considered a modification.

2. Centerboards may be retracted from the full down position at the discretion of the skipper. The cable may be removed or attached along the trailing edge of the board.

3. Fixed keels and centerboards may race together as one class. See Section F. Ratings.

I'd like to see this discussed on this forum and a request made to the officers for whatever the consensus and that the rules be modified to reflect an agreement of official designations and encourage for racing purposes that those who race their boats use those when entering their boat in a race.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 15:11:05

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> A myriad assortment of names are being applied to the two models which offers enough confusion as to make the numbers far less applicable than should be possible.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

As I understand it, only two types of C-250s are being built…fixed keels and centerboards. The only type of fixed keel being built is a wing keel. Catalina doesn’t build a fin keel C-250. The only type of centerboard being built is a water ballasted centerboard boat. Therefore, if a C-250 is called a fixed keel, or a wing keel or a wing, or a w/k, I think it’s clear what we are talking about. If a C-250 is called a centerboard, or a c/b, or a water ballast, or a w/b, I think it is equally clear what we are talking about.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I'd like to see…that the rules be modified to reflect an agreement of official designations and encourage for racing purposes that those who race their boats use those when entering their boat in a race.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

A law or rule is only meaningful if it can be enforced. If you expect a rule to be enforceable, you have to specify a penalty. In the absence of a penalty, a law or rule that can’t be enforced is nothing more than a “wish” that is likely to be disregarded. If the Catalina racing rules require that a C-250 owner designate the boat as a “wing keel” when he enters a local club race, and, if he designates it as a “w/k,” what is an appropriate penalty? Should he be disqualified, even though he finished in first place? Many C-250 owners (perhaps most) have never seen or read the C-250 racing rules. If you provide that a racer is disqualified for using the wrong shorthand term to designate the type of keel, you can bet that some sharp C-250 racer who has read the rules will protest the offending C-250 and get it disqualified. Is that a result that you want to cause, or a practice that you want to encourage by your rules?

If the rules become too strict and technical, then only a Philadelphia lawyer will be able to navigate through the minefield. When you know that only two types of C-250s are being built, any of the various shorthand terms usually make the type of boat reasonably clear. I don’t think it’s enough of a problem to justify a rule and penalty.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 17:13:09

Rules... penalties... protest? Whoa... I didn't suggest any of that... and don't understand why you went there with your answer.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> and encourage for racing purposes that those who race their boats use those when entering their boat in a race. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Encourage is a very long way from a rule.

The prime concern for the suggestion is that a great many race results don't indicate which model...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 19:48:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Rules... penalties... protest? Whoa... I didn't suggest any of that... and don't understand why you went there with your answer.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I went there with my answer because you did suggest that the rules be modified. You said:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'd like to see...that the rules be modified....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I was just pointing out that rules are, by their very nature, mandatory, not discretionary. When you add a provision to the rules, then penalties and protests naturally go along with it. Because rules are mandatory, suggestions or encouragements that are not intended to be mandatory should not be in the rules. It muddies the waters.

It's sad, but true, that not every racer who reads the rules will interpret them fairly. Some will try to distort them in order to gain an unfair advantage over another racer. The rules have to be kept very clear and unequivocal, in order to prevent that from happening.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 21:12:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>rules be modified to reflect an agreement of official designations <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

To lengthen my quote slightly... what I suggested was that the terms in our present rules that name the boats as fixed keel and centerboard be modified if a concensus of opinion favored other words. That was it.

The encouragement part was not related to a rules inclusion but rather concensus and education.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 11:09:44

Oh, now I get it, Arlyn! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> You were talking about apples and I was talking about oranges. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

If you would change the terns used to designate the two types of boats, what terms would you suggest?

There are only two types of C-250s, i.e. the wing keel and the water ballast. There is no other type of C-250.

Subsection C of the rules presently refers to the “fixed keel” and the “centerboard.” The subject of that Subsection is the type of keel with which the boat is equipped, and those two terms are generally accepted terms that describe two general types of keels.

The term “fixed keel” refers to an immovable surface that creates lateral resistance. It includes not only a wing keel, but also a fin keel or any other variation of fixed keel. Since the only type of fixed keel 250 that Catalina builds is a wing keel, then it is clear that all “fixed keel” C-250s are wing keel boats.

The term “centerboard” refers to a movable board that creates lateral resistance. Catalina only builds one type of C-250 that has a centerboard. That is the water ballasted C-250. Therefore, it is clear that all “centerboard” C-250s are water ballasted boats.

You could change the word “centerboard” to “water ballast,” but the subject addressed by Subsection C of the rules is the type of keel, not the type of ballast. The term “water ballast” doesn’t describe a type of keel. It describes the substance used to ballast the boat. The ballast could be iron, or lead, or water, or other substances. The term “centerboard” describes a movable type of keel. Since the subject of Subsection C is the type of “keel,” the words used in that Subsection should describe types of keels and not kinds of ballast.

But, even if you change the words used in that subsection, that wouldn’t do anything to solve the problem. There is no language in the Rules that requires a racer to use only those words when he enters a race. If you insert words that make it mandatory, then protests and disqualifications are the inevitable consequences of a violation, and you and I agree that such a consequence would be bad. If you don’t insert words that make it mandatory, but just suggest that those words be used, most people won’t bother to comply, even if they have read the rules. They will conclude that, if it isn’t mandatory to use the recommended words, it must not be very important. It takes effort to remember the recommended words, and people won’t make the effort if they don’t think it is important.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 18:51:39

We could just put a line in the entry form for the C250's:- "WK or CB" (or extend it to "Winged Keel or Centerboard")
When I enter "TSU" in a PHRF race, I specify Catalina 25,TRFK, because on that is what my PHRF is based. It would seem that this might satisfy both Arlyn and Steve's discussion points.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 10:53:41

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> We could just put a line in the entry form for the C250's:- "WK or CB" (or extend it to "Winged Keel or Centerboard")<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Derek, that would solve the problem for the national regatta, but Arlyn’s original post suggests that his concern is with the variation in terminology used in reporting the results of races that are sponsored by some organization other than the C 25-250 National Association.

I agree with Arlyn that the race reports can be confusing, but they are less so if: (1) you keep in mind that Catalina only builds two basic types of C-250s (wing keel and centerboard), and (2) keep in mind the distinctions between the two types, i.e., fixed keel (an immovable surface that creates lateral resistance) and centerboard (a movable surface that creates lateral resistance). For example, if a C-250 is identified in a race result as a FK, it has to refer to a “fixed keel” boat, which is a wing keel. It can’t refer to a “fin keel” boat, because Catalina doesn’t build fin keel C-250s.

The C 25-250 Association can control the way that it reports the results of the races that it sponsors and conducts, but how do we control the way that all the various local yacht clubs around the country report the results of their races? That’s the problem, and I don’t know of any effective way it can be done. The local clubs develop and use their own forms to record the results of their races. If the owner of a C-250 enters a race, and tells the member of the race committee who is keeping the records that his boat is a “centerboard” boat, the record keeper might write down “centerboard,” or he might write down “CB,” or “WB,” or some other shorthand term that the record keeper believes is adequate to identify the type of boat. If the owner tells the race committee that his boat is a “wing keel,” the record keeper might write it down as “WK,” or “wing,” or “FK,” or “fixed,” or “fixed keel,” or some other shorthand term that the record keeper believes is adequate to identify the type of boat. Neither this association nor the boat owner can control the way the local race committees record information. But, in most cases, I think you can figure out what the race committee meant.

The C-25s have been racing for a long time, and race committees have become accustomed to using the shorthand terms that identify them (TR, SR, FK, WK, SK). Race Committees haven’t settled on any particular uniform shorthand designations that identify the types of C-250s.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/25/2003 : 16:30:24

"Race Committees haven’t settled on any particular uniform shorthand designations that identify the types of C-250s."

We have Steve! Either C250 WK or CB.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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ssteakley
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Response Posted - 09/28/2003 : 20:14:50

Hey Guys,
Let's keep this simple, just fix it so that when I race against Derek in his Cat 25 TRFK, I can beat him in my C-250 WK <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Just keep it simple,
thanks,
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK <img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/forum1.gif" border=0>

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/28/2003 : 23:08:48

"Let's keep this simple, just fix it so that when I race against Derek in his Cat 25 TRFK, I can beat him in my C-250 WK"
In your dreams, Steve! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 00:37:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The prime concern for the suggestion is that a great many race results don't indicate which model... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I believe what Arlyn is saying is this. If you look at the following results taken from the BLSA racing page and you didn't know that 183 was an early model you wouldn't have any idea if the c250 was a WK or a WB.

So there is no way to list this boat as a racing wing keel or a racing water ballast.

Pos Tally Fleet Boat Name Class Sail No Helm USPN Elapsed Corrected Pts

1 22 Boat 22 Corsair F24 Whisler 74 00:28:35 00:38:38 1.0
2 1 Wicked Witch Hobie 33 Tacy/Beglin 71.8 00:28:30 00:39:42 2.0
3 3 Badmudda J24 46 Smith/Keeler 80.4 00:34:00 00:42:17 3.0
4 7 J/Walker J24 Buckley 80.4 00:35:05 00:43:38 4.0
5 2 Halcyon Catalina 250 183 Keck/Pantle 93.5 00:41:36 00:44:30 5.0 
6 19 Tupelo Honey Catalina 22 Caudill/Mullally 95.2 00:42:31 00:44:40 6.0
7 13 Heron Oday 23 Hughes 98.7 00:44:43 00:45:18 7.0
8 5 Second Wind Oday 26 325 Jones 91.3 00:41:24 00:45:21 8.0
9 19 Loon II Capri 26 Brierley 89 00:45:17 00:50:53 9.0
10 11 Cut Throat J24 Cajacob 80.4 00:42:15 00:52:33 10.0
11 20 Seventh Sense Hunter 280 Masters 90 00:47:49 00:53:08 11.0
12 18 Lump Sum Catalina 22 12363 Johannemann 95.2 00:50:47 00:53:21 12.0

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - bryan beamer on 09/29/2003 10:19:58

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 09:52:10

Good point Bryan I was thinking about making that point myself. BTW #183 (hanging with the likes of J's, Hobie's, and Corsair's) is a 250WB<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>.
What I don't see is how you get sailing associations to make the distinction.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - RAY SEITZ on 09/29/2003 09:55:06

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 14:11:32

Ray hit the nail on the head. How does the Catalina 25-250 National Assoc. persuade or force the Brookville Lake Sailing Assoc., and all the other sailing associations at all the other lakes across the country, to classify C-250s in a uniform manner? The race results were posted on the BLSA website for the benefit of BLSA members, and BLSA is free to post, or to omit, any information it wishes on its own website.

Incidentally, I crewed on that C-250 in that race. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> In the previous race I didn't crew for him and he did better. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 16:45:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Ray hit the nail on the head. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Steve, I thought I was restating something you said earlier.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Incidentally, I crewed on that C-250 in that race. In the previous race I didn't crew for him and he did better. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I hope your taking notes on what he (Max) is doing Steve so you can share that info with me<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>, I think I will race more next year, I was really having my arm twisted last weekend. There is talk of seperating off all the rocket boats next year since participation is strong and they finish so far ahead that wind conditions often change before others can finish.
Bryan you changed your post after my entry; Didn't you add the line beginning with So there is no way?

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 18:23:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Bryan you changed your post after my entry; Didn't you add the line beginning with So there is no way?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Nope. I just corrected a spelling error.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
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Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 18:46:50

<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>Guess I should read before I type! I have the same problem with my mouth.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d831b3127cce891ba4a976e00000001010" border=0>On the water
C250 WB Sea Major #628

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
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Pitcairn Island
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Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 13:30:38

Arlyn,
I have been stewing over this for some time. You don't bring things up lightly. I think your intent is well founded. Could we do something as simple as alter the class rules to require a sail number to have an alpha designation included. Sail numbers are easy to apply and cheap. I would be SR2790SK, you would be 224WB. This way the sail numbers that are recorded by the race committee would include a configuration designation. Maybe it should be a "strongly recommended" suggestion or maybe a class requirement. My search of PHRF rating proved to me a real lack of data because most places just call we classics Catalina 25s with no regard to configuration.
<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/07/2003 13:34:26

Edited by - fhopper@mac.com on 10/07/2003 13:35:59

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 17:16:11

Frank - in the annual National PHRF Handbook all the various configs of C25's are listed. However, the C250's are a problem - there are 3 lists, one C250WB, one C250WK and one just designated C250, presumably because the reporting PHRF Committee didn't specify the keel type. It's not just the keel config that baffles Race Committees - it's also the variety of factory issue headsails...on Canyon Lake we differentiate the keel types, but as long as the headsail is 155% or less you don't get any adjustments - unless you race in our Cruiser Fleet when we do adjust for headsails! Confusing, isn't it! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 18:05:59

Getting enough numbers for a fair perspective of the differences between the two models, doesn't require that every race be factored... but ability to catergorize the majority of them would help.

My thought from the beginning of the thread was that an education attempt based on the most widely used trend of use would be the way to go. If different than the terminology in the racing rules... then changing those terms would assist the process rather than confuse it.

Frank, I like your idea... except that it would enter the zone that Steve Milby wisely suggest staying away from.

Also, this really isn't my area to tread as I don't race anymore. I did research the listings on the web and noted that WK and CB were used as much or more than any others...and that is what Derek said was used at Canyon lake. Those sound very reasonable to me. I agree fully with Steve Milby, that the terms shouldn't be made a point of a requirment in any way.

Changing those terms in the racing rules is withing the clarification lattitudes given to officers... so it's no big deal to do.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 18:37:31

Frank,

I liked your idea too, at first, but think it is subject to the same problems as I mentioned earlier. The National Association can't force anyone to put insignias on their sails unless a penalty is prescribed for failure to do so.

I bought the sails for my C-25 before the boat was built. When I ordered the sails, I didn't know what her sail numbers would be, so I bought the sails without sail numbers. When I started racing her, a member of my club threatened to protest me if I didn't put numbers on my sails. (Everyone knew who I was. They didn't need numbers to identify me.) If we require Catalina owners to put letter designations on their sails, in addition to sail numbers, some pr-ck will protest a C25 owner when he wins a big race, just because all the insignia required by the C-25 rules aren't on his sails.

I would like to see a solution to Arlyn's concern, but I don't know of a way to do it that would (1) work (There's no good reason to make a rule or requirement if it won't accomplish the desired objective.), and (2) not cause unnecessary problems for Catalina sailors.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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Bryan Beamer
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Response Posted - 10/07/2003 : 19:47:31

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Could we do something as simple as alter the class rules to require a sail number to have an alpha designation included.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

See in the picture the K in the diamond under the 250 on the sail. I thought that designates it as a keel model. What does the water ballast have there? If the K does not stand for keel what does it stand for?

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce26b3127cce8fe742b538360000001610" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d607b3127cce8d07b033366e0000003180" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495
2003 National Champion

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osmepneo
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Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 11:21:56

As I read this thread one thought came through my mind. The handicap that each boat has in PHRF is noted on the entry form, or on club records. the race committee knows the difference and uses that to calculate final position.
The problem is in posting results. We would like to know whether a c25 is a swing, wing or fin keel model; or if a 250 is a wing or centerboard, water ballest model. As a national association we might be able to control national or even regional events. We can solicite other clubs and associations to to include keel designations, but the may or most like may not include this added information.
We can't control those other clubs and associations.
Tough issue, because the information would be valuable for both c25 and c250.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce31b3127cce8f8c0cbf1bca0000001010 " border=0>
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY
On the hard

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2003 : 11:31:20

Another problem might be that there are not many 250's racing. so the ratings that are given are based on only a few sailors. If the sailor is a hotshot, and does very well, the handicap would be low, and if the skipper ain't so hot the handicap would be fairly high.

To rectify this more 250 skippers need to race in events that influence handicaps.

Just another thought!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3ce31b3127cce8f8c0cbf1bca0000001010 " border=0>
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY
On the hard

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