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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Spinlock px0812/sw

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Sid
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Initially Posted - 09/23/2003 : 11:24:12

I'm considering replacing the cleats aft of the coaming winches with spinlock px0812/sw swivel cams. Anyone have any experience with them or have a better alternative? My wife finds it difficult to unload the cleat with the winch when preparing to tack. Also, what about placing the cams forward of the winches so I can free up the winch after the cam is locked? This would also make entering and exiting the boat easier at dock with no cleats on top of the coaming.
Thanks for your tips.
Sid

77 C25 SK #21

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 12:02:45

Sid,

My experience has been that cam's can be hard to disengage when under load, as well. I have clam cleats and find them very easy to disengage under even the heaviest load; just lift the sheet up.

A bit hard to see in this picture, but the clam cleat is located to the left of the winch and sits on a nylon leveling block:
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d909b3127cce8be21d5566180000001610" border=0>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000008010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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Sid
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 12:23:46

I was getting specs for the Spinlock power cleat of the manufacturer"s website and it says that cam cleats are only for hand tensioned lines (max load 440#)and are not suitable for winch tensioned line. They recommend cluthes or jammers. I have seen on many boats in the 22-26 with cams and winches, in similar set ups to Antares' pic above. Anyone else use a similar set up?

77 C25 SK #21

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 12:35:57

If you do decide on cams, check the shape of the jaws. If they're rounded off toward the top (and not too big for the sheet), they'll release more easily as you pull the sheet up. The trick is aligning the cam cleat to the winch, since the sheet leads down from the 2-3 wraps you put on. Sitting flat on the coaming, the cam probably won't hold.

Two complaints I have about clam cleats: When a line is running and inadvertently finds its way into the groove, it stops running in a hurry! (This happens more easily than you might think.) And when the sheet is cleated, it's easy to accidentally dislodge it--particularly a sheet lying around in a cockpit.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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PZell
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 12:51:55

Sparky is set up similar to Antares (along with backup horn cleats). I believe my cleats may be a little more aft on the coaming though. The leveling blocks are teak. They work very well for singlehanding, and are a level below having self tailing winches. Crank and set crank and set if you want to move the jib sheet in. They can be bumped free under certain conditions and a wet line under tension sometimes is a bit difficult. But, I don't think it would be wise to have a cleat that could not be quickly released.

Paul C25FK Sparky
'PZ' W7JVY KFS/KTK/KLB/KOK/WNU/KPH/WCC/VAI/VAJ

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 19:23:00

I'm a great believer in cam cleats for the jib sheets. I had clam cleats on the C22 (until I threw them overboard in disgust!)and they would catch the lazy sheet so easily and cause problems tacking. As Dave says, use cam cleats with a riser (both Ronstan and Harken use the same size riser - available at the E.E. and elsewhere). Make sure that the center of the cleat is lined up with the outside edge of the winch (on starbd side) and with the inside edge on the port side - this gives you the best possible "lead in". Incidentally, Ronstan cam cleats are much cheaper than Harken and in my crew's opinion much better.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>
TRFK#2262"This Side Up"

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 20:46:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Incidentally, Ronstan cam cleats are much cheaper than Harken and in my crew's opinion much better.
Derek
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I agree with Derek's crew. (How did that happen?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) ...probably because of the rounded jaws I mentioned, which aid in releasing under load.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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eric.werkowitz
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 22:00:22

Sid,

I suspect that the Spinlock recommendation applies to putting the winch after the cleat as you would with clutch. Putting the winch between the cleat and the load results in little load on the cleat as most is taken up by the friction on the winch.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

Edited by - eric.werkowitz on 09/23/2003 23:03:22

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/23/2003 : 22:16:27

I think Eric is right.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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ClamBeach
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Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 00:31:30

A buddy has those spinlocks on his Mac 26... I've sailed with them and they work great!

Snap the line up and it releases very easily. Pull the line down and it locks tight.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 09:41:44

One question for Sid... Why swivel cams? If you mount a cam in a particular position (such as aft of the winch), it's angle is dictated by where the sheet comes off the winch. I don't see how you'll be able to swivel it to some other angle and expect the sheet to hold. It seems to me that application calls for a fixed cam on a riser, aimed to take the line from the clockwise wrap on the winch.

BTW, looking at the Spinlock Powercleats, I see they're essentially very light-duty rope clutches. (PX0812/SW is just a swivel base for them.) I question using a "clutch" type device--you won't be able to tail the sheet upward to avoid an overwrap on the winch. I'd recommend against anything that doesn't completely release the line for tailing and for running free. I also question the strength of the Powercleat--if you don't put enough wraps on the winch, the cleat could fail under excessive load.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 09/24/2003 10:03:33

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Sid
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Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 10:50:54

The release under load was my concern. I liked the swivel version due to being able to release the line from the helm while single handing. My previous boat had swivel cams for the jib sheets and made them easy to release if overpowered. I didn't have winches though. What are the load ratings on the cam cleats on Antares and This Side Up?

77 C25 SK #21

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 11:25:30

Sid,

I can't provide the load specs. on my clam cleats, but I've had them heavily loaded with no problems (i.e., 155% in 20 knts.). Of course, the winch is taking most of the load.

To avoid inadvertently jamming the weather sheet I always flip the sheet in front of the winch when tacking. To avoid inadvertently releasing the leeward I always jam the sheet down into the clam cleat.

Since I always singlehand, the clam cleat provides the best solution for me. When helming from the weather side, especially in a blow, I can easily release and slacken the leeward sheet with a moderate tug on the sheet.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000008010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 14:34:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I can't provide the load specs. on my clam cleats, but I've had them heavily loaded with no problems (i.e., 155% in 20 knts.). Of course, the winch is taking most of the load.

To avoid inadvertently jamming the weather sheet I always flip the sheet in front of the winch when tacking. To avoid inadvertently releasing the leeward I always jam the sheet down into the clam cleat.

Since I always singlehand, the clam cleat provides the best solution for me. When helming from the weather side, especially in a blow, I can easily release and slacken the leeward sheet with a moderate tug on the sheet.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Those are good solutions... A clam has almost unlimited load capacity--no moving parts like a cam. A disadvantage of a cam for JB's situation is that you can't easily set it without pulling the line, which on a sheet, may mean cranking the winch. With the clam, you just lay it in the groove. But the groove has to be aligned to the angle of the sheet coming off the winch, generally meaning on a wedge or a big riser.

What does anyone think about my concerns about the Powercleat (mini-clutch)? Am I misleading Sid?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
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Response Posted - 09/24/2003 : 15:06:50

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
What does anyone think about my concerns about the Powercleat (mini-clutch)? Am I misleading Sid?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No, Dave, I don't think so. I have Spinlock XAS (XAS0612/3) Powerclutches for up to 1/2" line on my cabin top. My 3/8" halyards, which are the same size and material as my sheets, don't exactly run freely through the clutches. Additionally, hocking tends to be a problem.

Finally, releasing a Powerclutch lever while tailing the jib sheet, holding the tiller, drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette and chatting up the cute girls on the sun deck of a Sea Ray just seems like a little too much for a singlehander. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000008010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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Sid
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Response Posted - 09/26/2003 : 11:14:14

I am considering the Spinlock cams, not the clutches. My understanding is that you rotate them down to lock and that there is no pull to set, only pivot down. Pivot up and the line runs free, no hanging up as on traditional cams. Am I correct in how they function? I don't want those on the SeaRay to fall off the sundeck laughing at me as I try to loosen the sheet and tend the tiller, all while holding beer and cigar<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

77 C25 SK #21

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
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Response Posted - 09/26/2003 : 11:31:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am considering the Spinlock cams, not the clutches.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Sorry, Sid, apparently I got off track during development of the thread; cams, clams, clutches.

I just took a look at the Spinlock products page, and I've never seen the PowerCams before; interesting. My only concern, as stated somewhere up above, would be that the lines run fair. If so, I may eventually replace my clams with the Spinlocks.

Please let us know what you do and how it works.

Best regards,

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000008010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2003 : 15:24:56

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I am considering the Spinlock cams, not the clutches. My understanding is that you rotate them down to lock and that there is no pull to set, only pivot down.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
You're talking about the Powercleats, right? That's what I was looking at... My question about using them for genoa sheets is the following: When you grind in the sheet, how do you tail it in such a way that it doesn't overwrap on the winch (meaning tail it upwards off the drum) if you have it leading through a closed cleat on the coaming? Next, if you're tacking, release the sheet, the sail whips across the foredeck, the sheet "hocks" against the now windward Powercleat, stopping the genny in a backwinded position and you spill your beer down the front of your pants and drop your cigar into the port locker with the gas tank, how do you keep the girls from falling off the Sea Ray. (Actually, I guess the girls wouldn't know a backwinded sail from an upside-down spinnaker, but the rest...) <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/26/2003 : 15:29:24

Wait... I get it... You WANT the girls to fall of the Sea Ray! They're wearing Phish concert teeshirts...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Sea Trac
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Vanuatu
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Response Posted - 09/26/2003 : 15:34:36

Yeah, I'm finally talking about the same thing (i.e., Powercleats) as you guys.
<img src="http://www.spinlock.co.uk/images/productImages/63.jpg" border=0>
And, Dave, your concerns are exactly the same as mine. Although I was originally thinking Powerclutches (and mis-typed Powerclutch in my last message), the problems may still be the same as I experience with my 3/8" halyards in the Powerclutches; friction and hocking. Also, as you mentioned previously, compensating for sheet angle coming off the winch.

Guess we need someone going to the next boat show to get the answers for us.

J.B. Manley
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d609b3127cce8d2e212441c60000008010" border=0>
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/26/2003 : 16:57:21

There's the picture... Notice that, unlike a cam or clam cleat, the line is "captured" as with a clutch. I love my clutches for the main halyard, topping lift, reefing line, etc., but they don't pose the problems I mentioned. A sheet should (1) be hauled and tailed upward off the winch, and (2) run free with a minimum of possible obstructions. An open cam or clam allows both.

BTW, let't be clear and not call the Spinlock Powercleats "cam cleats"... They may have some similarities internally, but their application is, IMHO, different.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 09/26/2003 17:08:24

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jsummerfield
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Response Posted - 09/27/2003 : 00:48:33

I have the standard cleats. However, there is an article in Sailnet that may help. Check http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=woodto0170 for an article called "Hold that Line".

John
C25 3973 FK/SR
"Texas Tango"

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