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jlouder
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/29/2003 : 14:26:32

After over thirty years of messing around in sail boats, it finally happened, I was in an accident. Thank God nobody was hurt, but Amazing Grace came out second. I would like to get opinions on placing the fault and who should pay for repairs. Neither on of us has hull insurance. I feel that both of us are at fault. Where do I start....... I was solo sailing last Saturday on an inland lake, not a cloud in the sky, winds 8 to 10 knots, full sails, 150 genoa, and completely enjoying my self. I had been on a (grimace)port tack for about 1/2 hour when I saw the bow of a sail boat 1 foot from my starboard side. A J22 with a crew of 5 t-boned me (nobody was racing). He could not have caught me closer to the center if he tried. He said that no one on his boat saw me. At the time it happened I was sitting on the high side, heeling moderately and I did not see him at all. I dropped my sails and followed him to his boat club to inspect the damage. The J 22 has a bent bow pulpit and a few chips in the fiberglass. I on the other had had a pretty good bash in the fiberglass around the genoa track, a cracked genoa track, bent life line stanchion, rubrail damage, chips and gouges in the fiber glass.

One the dock the other skipper said that he thought he was on a starboard tack (another grimance) and that he was willing to accept partial blame. I agreed that we should settle this together and work out an equitable solution. I feel we were jointly at fault, he hit me and had a crew of 5, but I was on a port tack.

I am afraid that the other sailers at the boat club (this club serioulsy races all of the time) will try and persuade him that since he was on a starboard tack he has no responsiblility.

Please give me your opinions.

I know one thing is that I am going to find a way to raise the 150 where I can see under it when sitting on the high side and heeling.

Thanks for your help.

Jim Loudermilk
"Amazing Grace"
#5768 std rig wk

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 14:55:00

Hi Jim,

I'm sorry about your accident, and very glad no one was hurt. We had a J29 helmsman split from chin to ear a couple of weeks ago in almost exactly the same situation, only at night.

Unfortunately, in the strictest sense I think you would be found at fault. However, it is everyone's responsibility to avoid a collision, so the fact that the J22 had a crew of five places some blame on them, as well. Since most of the damage was to your boat, you should each be able to agree to assume the liability for fixing your own boat. If not, your insurance companies will probably agree to the same thing.

In 1/2 hour at that wind velocity, you and the J22 could have made 3 miles each; easily. I singlehand also. When flying my 155% deck sweeper (which has a window) and helming from the weather rail, I regularly (i.e., no less than every five minutes) move to the lee rail and look under the foot of the genoa. In light air I helm from the lee rail, in heavier traffic areas I do the same or I dip and look much more frequently. The only way to modify the 155% to obtain a panoramic view is to have the foot "high cut" and to add a pennant.

Once again, I'm sorry for your misfortune.

[P.s. Crew of 5 on a J22, seems alot for a small boat. They weren't inebriated by any chance, were they? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>]

Best of luck,

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - Antares on 09/29/2003 15:09:57

Edited by - Antares on 09/30/2003 09:54:28

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 15:03:58

OUCH!! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> Sorry to hear of your mishap.

First, I'm not sure who would win this case in a court of law, but if he (the J22) had right-of-way(starboard tack) then it would seem that even though he t-boned you, you should have given way before the t-boning. This means that even though you were both somewhat responsible, he had right-of-way placing the majority of fault on you. I say, if he is willing to accept partial responsibility then I would see if he is agreeable to footing the repairs to one's own boat.

I sail singlehanded quite a bit and have to be ever vigilant of the other sailors, powerboaters, freighters, barges, fisherman, buoys,...etc, that are scattered about. One thing I do to get a good picture of what is near me is every so often I will turn the boat so many degrees leeward for a few seconds and then return to my previous course just to see if anything is lurking in the distance behind the genoa. This helps, but I do get surprised every so often by the small fishing boat that sometimes seems to appear out of thin air.

I hope all works out.

<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>Don Lucier<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/c25sm.gif" border=0>
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9ffdf1d0000003010" border=0>
North Star SR/FK

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 15:04:02

Jim, I'm sorry that you had an accident, but am also glad that no one was hurt. I assume that the J22 t-boned you on your starboard side. so, it sounds like a classic port starboard, except the boat with rights has:

1. An obligation to let you know that you are a collision course. Did he yell, "Starboard!"? If not he is partly to blame for the accident.
2. Did the J22 do anything to try to avoid the accident. Again, a "No" would indicate partial responsibility.

But you were still on port, and the boat on port is burdened, I would think that you have significant responsibility for repairs, I'd guess 70-75% and 25-30% for him. But I don't know how to access that kind of responsibility - especially when you didn't see him and he didn't see you. Maybe the lawyers will get into this and some legal words of wisdaom.

Good luck.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 16:54:49

regardless of port or starboard, he hit you. You did not hit him. He has an obligation to avoid colliosion, no matter who is burdened. Personally, I would never to agree to pay any percentage of damages in this situation. At best I would take care of my boat, let him take care of his.

<img src="http://www.indiscipline.org/cat25/pictures/icon.jpg" border=0>Indiscipline 1978 FK #398

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 17:22:51

Don makes a good case here for partial blame of the starboard boat... and that your blame factor might be heavier...but so are your damages... so, I'd suggest to him that each of you take care of your own boat.

I would think the only way for him to be clear of any blame... is that he had sounded a horn in adequate time for you to bear off. And, that lacking your bearing off... he had attempted some collision avoidance himself.

There was a very interesting collision narrated on the Trailer Sailor BB where a power cruiser ran down an Island Packet in a channel and totalled it. After an investigation, the power cruiser was assesed the greater amount of fault. The Island Packet however shared the fault for reasons Don mentions... failure to sound a horn and not taking evasive action.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 18:45:57

Jim: I think you put some "fear" into all of us... Sorry it happened, but glad the only damage was to the toys.

Don, Arlyn, and others allude to an important principle in the rules: The definitions of the "burdened" and "stand-on" vessels is used to define how two boats approaching on collision course should behave. The stand-on vessel is to maintain course, and the burdened vessel is to change course. If the stand-on vessel changes course when he shouldn't (or hasn't signalled his intention to do so), it's like a basketball player faking right and going left--it creates a problem. So the first responsibility for both vessels is to stand on and to give way, respectively.

Now, if for any reason it doesn't work out that way, BOTH vessels are responsible for what happens next. I believe it's now the stand-on vessel's responsibility to signal his intention to maintain course and speed. If he fails to do so, or if he receives no acknowledgement, he now has responsibility for avoiding a collision. He does NOT have "right of way"--he has responsibilities (starting with maintaining course) under the rules, and the rules are meant to create order, not to let somebody get home first.

Just because a sailboat is on starboard does not mean that boat isn't responsible for knowing what's going on around it. If you were freighter in a channel, the J-22 would be the burdened vessel--starboard (and sail) or not.

I wouldn't be surprised if a Court of Admiralty found you 60% at fault, and the J 40% at fault. Since the damage sounds more like 80-20, you may be letting him off the hook by agreeing to take care of your own boat.

Now, when you say "no hull insurance", do you have liability and personal injury coverage for your boat?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 20:02:46

Jim, you said, on the dock, that he said "he thought he was on the starboard tack". Do you recall if this was in fact, true? Or was he simply trying to test your recollection?

I'm sorry for your misfortune.

Mark Silver Girl '83 fin keel tall rig # 3744

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 20:14:37

An unfortunate situation indeed. Good thing no one was hurt.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> The only way to modify the 155% to obtain a panoramic view is to have the foot "high cut" and to add a pennant. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I seem to remember that years ago there were windows in the big genoas for this very reason.....whatever happened to them?

250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake
<img src="http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/Images/familypics/Forumshots/sunglitter.JPG" border=0>

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 20:44:02

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I seem to remember that years ago there were windows in the big genoas for this very reason.....whatever happened to them?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hi Oscar,

I have one of those "windows" in my 155%, but like the rear window in my convertible it is next to useless. Besides being opaque plexiglass, or whatever, the angle of view for the 155% window will allow you to see the bow of the other boat just prior to impact; so at least you can grab a handhold.

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Shawn
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2003 : 23:09:37

I think Dave Bristle and Don Lucier are correct. You were on a port tack, he (thinks) was on a starboard tack. You have more responsibility for the collision, especially when he has five buddies who were with him who will most likely say whatever he tells them to. Avoid the cost of lawyers, take responsibility for your own repairs. If this does end up in court, from your explanation, you will most likely end up paying for your repairs and at the very least, a percentage of his.
Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I know how easy it is to lose focus of whats around you, and get wrapped up in the peace of singlehand sailing.

Shawn
1980 C25 tr/fk #1960

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2003 : 07:48:46

The one thing I would add to all of this that I don't think anyone has mentioned is. . . get insurance!

Brooke

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2003 : 08:26:34

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The one thing I would add to all of this that I don't think anyone has mentioned is. . . get insurance!

Brooke

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

He mentioned he didn't have "Hull Insurance" Does that mean he just has liability?

I would mention three items that come to mind.

1. It seems he failed to keep a proper lookout (as did you)however he had 4 other crew members.
2. He should have hailed you if he was on starboard. However he is not under an obligation to do so.
3. Regardless of racing, he does have an obligation to avoid contact.

DW

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/images/layout/category_images/t_3964.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2003 : 09:13:51

Sorry for your troubles, as we say in the Irish. The fact that a skipper has the right of way does NOT absolve him/her from responsibility in a collision--see the General Prudential rule, as it was called back when I taught Seamanship, which says basically that you must take whatever steps are necessary to avoid collision, whether you are in the right or wrong as far as right-of-way goes. I agree with those who say : Each fix own boat and let it go. A cheap lesson, in a way. However, if HE starts making noises about what a wretch you are, etc, remember, he has contributory negligence sure as shootin...god bless, ron srsk Orion SW FL

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2003 : 10:04:05

Jim,

Sorry to here about your accident. You definately have a dilema. Here is what Chapman's Piloting says.
- As the port tack vessel, you were required to give way.
- When both vessels are on the same tack, the windward vessel must give way.
- A sailing vessel on port tack must keep clear of an upwind vessel even if it cannot be certain of the other vessel's tack.
- All vessels must maintain a proper lookout.

By your description, the other skipper wasn't sure if he was on starbord tack or not and neither vessel had proper lookout, i.e. someone "who has no other duties except to observe and warn the skipper of hazards". While the Rules of the Road do not prohibit single-handed sailing, in the event of a collision, the single-handed operator bears the burdon of proof to establish that a "proper lookout" could not have prevented the accident.

So much for the rules. It sounds to me like the J22 skipper wasn't sure wether he was on the starboard tack or not and, among five crew, had not designated someone to watch for other boats, something a prudent skipper would do with an obviously "overloaded" boat. While I don't believe you can make your case in a marine court, you can probably leverage the J22 skipper with his failure to have a proper lookout, what sounds like a general lack of sailing knowledge, and the fact the he may have been sailing with a crew beyond the safe carrying capacity of the vessel.

Your first inclination to work repairs out between the two of you is probably the correct one. You might want to see what your insurance will cover first, then work out an amicable agreement for the ballance. Regardless of what the rules and his racing cronies say, both you and he are equally at fault - failure to avoid collision by the use of proper lookout.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Al
GALLIVANT
C25T 5801

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2003 : 14:39:32

BTW, you wouldn't race a J-22 with a crew of five, but five is not overloading a J-22. They're essentially a 22' day sailer/racer with a cuddy and a l o n g cockpit.

Another BTW... I haven't seen a jib window that would have likely prevented Jim's misfortune. To me, the best preventative, especially single-handed, is to helm from the leeward side where you have a reasonable view under and around the foresail, and even under the boom. (It helps that mine is cut higher for a roller furler, but I generally sit to leeward.) If you feel like your weight creates more heel than you want (meaning you're pretty heavy), you should probably be shortening sail.

Finally, to repeat myself and for the other sailors at his club, HE DID NOT HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY under the rules.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

jlouder
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 14:02:19

LESSONS LEARNED

First of all, thanks to everybody for replying. Your insight and ideas were greatly appreciated.

Now for the good news. The other boat and I are going to work together on the damages. It looks like he will repair his boat and I will repair mine.

I do have liability insurance, I do not leave home without it. But I am going to get full coverage and hope its another 30 years before I have to use it.

I will now keep a much better look out regardless of how nice the day is (no more daydreaming while sailing alone). The idea of sitting on the lee side will take some getting used to but I am going to try it. Also I will worry about keeping a straight course and zig zag alot to see who is around. I am also going to be more vocal when there are other boats around, I am not going to assume that they see me.

Amazing Grace can still sail so I think I will put off the repairs until the weather turns. The weather has been too nice to stay on land.

Thanks again for everyones insght.

Jim Loudermilk
Amazing Grace
#5768 88 std wk

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 14:12:21

Great news, Jim.

Thanks for being brave enough to post, good sport enough to take some tough criticism, and for presenting an important object lesson for the rest of us.

There's no better place to daydream, and I'm guilty of that myself. Thankfully, I've never been unlucky enough to have gotten caught.

Fair winds,

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2003 : 14:14:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The idea of sitting on the lee side will take some getting used to but I am going to try it. Jim Loudermilk
Amazing Grace
#5768 88 std wk
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The lee side is the preferred side for me and I weigh 300 lbs. You should get very comfortable down there. No one falls from the leeside, slips on lines on the cockpit floor, looses things sliding of the settee, etc. It really is the place to be most of the time. looking up at your slot is a very nice view. One thing that helps people who are uncomfortable heeling is to get them to lean against the cabin bulkhead with their feet on the settee. The feeling of heel is reduce to a mild sense of rotation. They will feel secure and happy, (as long as they don't notice the rail going under).

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

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