Association Forum

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

AC/DC

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

1grndslr
1st Mate

Member Avatar

34 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/20/2003 : 08:58:17

I just purchased an '86 25 tall rig. I can't tell if the ac/dc switch is working. After plugged into shore power, I find that if I turn the battery switch to off the lights go off. Is there something I'm missing?

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 09:22:35

The AC and DC systems are completely separate. You should have a 12V battery that runs all of the lights, etc. that is controlled by your 12V switch panel.

The shore power cord has a single AC breaker switch that runs the AC to usually two 110V outlets. Unless you plug something into the AC outlets, the AC won't be used. Many have installed a battery charger that will charge the batteries when the shore power is hooked up.

-don

Don & Freda Jones
"Swept Away" '83 C25 SR/FK
Southport, NC

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 09:25:29

The lights that are mounted inside the boat only work on 12 volt DC. The AC shore power only supplies power to the 110 duplex electrical outlets that are mounted on each pin rail. You can plug 110 electric lights, or a microwave oven, or a t.v. into them. The two systems are completely separate. When you turn the battery switch off, you are cutting the power to the lights. When you plug in the shore power and flip the AC/DC switch, you supply 110 volt power to the duplex outlets, and to any device that is plugged into the outlets.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 09:44:12

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I just purchased an '86 25 tall rig. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
tell me more about the boat. What kind of keel does it have? Do you have a Bimini? I always like to here about what the Privious Owner has done and what you plan to do. I hope you have joined this organization. It is the best.

<img src="http://members.cox.net/fhopper/Catalina25/sigbow.jpg" border=0>Frank and Martha in Wichita KS. Lake Cheney

Edited by - on

1grndslr
1st Mate

Members Avatar

34 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 12:34:08

Thanks, to all who replied. This is wonderful for a new boat owner. I now know what to do.

ted childs - "childs play"
C25 - gainesville, ga - lake lanier.

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 13:53:34

Welcome fellow tall-rigger from John on Lake Norman (Charlotte). If you haven't already, practice reefing that tall rig. You'll need it this fall during the windy season!

John Matsche 1985 TR/FK #5171

Edited by - on

Jared
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 16:04:21

I just got an 86 Tall Rig about a month ago as well - congrats! I love it so far. While on this topic, my AC has a switch that says Reverse Polarity On-Off. What is this used for and what good is it for and should I even touch it - it is on ON now?

Ditto on the reefing. I put my boat in the water on this Saturday for the first time and there was a reefing line at the leech that was missing a line, so we couldn't reef very easily out on the water. We brought her around Stingray Point in Virginia from the Piankatank River into her Rappahannock River home and the winds were over 20+ knots steady with bigger gusts and at least 3 ft. (maybe more?) choppy seas out there. We had the main up and the genoa reefed, but I wished I would have reefed the main before leaving the boatyard. Doesn't sound that rough, but I just learned to sail and this was my first time without an experienced person on board on anything bigger than a hobie cat - so it felt rough to me. The boat, however, was as stable and solid as a rock and I know how that feels now. I will need a good reason for the next year or so to take her out into the open bay when the Small Craft Advisory is on though.

Enjoy the boat.

Jared Jamison
86 C25 #5354 FK/TR "Saba Rocks" Richmond, VA

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 16:21:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
We brought her around Stingray Point in Virginia from the Piankatank River into her Rappahannock River home
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Where was she on the Piankatank? We keep our C250 in Fishing Bay Harbor Marina - just wondering if we've lost a neighbor. Where are you on the Rappahanock? As for the weather - it can get a little choppy sometimes, but you'll learn to handle it. There's a lot of great sailing around that area.

Welcome! You'll find a great bunch of friendly & helpful people on this board. It's a great resource! Have you joined the association yet?

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 16:35:46

Jared, If yours is anything like ours, that switch is actually the main AC circuit breaker. There is a light right next to the switch that illuminates when there is a reverse polarity AC connection.

110V AC uses 3 wires, hot, neutral, and ground. On occasion, someone accidently swaps the hot and neutral wires in the dock wiring, or shore power hookups. This puts 110V on the neutral wire inside the boat, and that is dangerous.

The reverse polarity light is connected between the neutral line, and ground. It comes on to warn you if it sees voltage between those two lines.

I guess someone might hookup a reversing switch, but that might not be a great idea if the lamp ever stoped working! Changing out the 120 outlets to the newer GFI (ground-fault-interupt) is a good idea too if not already done.

-don

Don & Freda Jones
"Swept Away" '83 C25 SR/FK
Southport, NC

Edited by - on

Jared
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 19:59:10

Cathy,

We brought our boat over from Jackson Creek from Deltaville Boatyard where it was sitting on the hard. About 2 months ago, she was over there near you at Ruark's and was named Serendipity - you may have seen the boat before. We bought it from some folks who had moved away and not sailed or scrubbed the boat in quite a while it looked. We have since scrubbed her, repainted the bottom, shined up the hulls, and started cleaning the cabin - she is coming along and is looking great. I also work with a guy who had a Catalina 25 over at Fishing Bay but just sold it for a Hunter 30.

You will have to give me some advise on some places to go. I have been looking into it and Grog Island, Urbanna, Irvington, Fishing Bay sounds like great daysails. When I get a little better at sailing, Onancock and Tangier will have to be visited. Any other places you can think of would be great. We are keeping her at Stingray Harbor right now. I will send you an email when we are coming over to Fishing Bay to anchor one day - I would like to see a 250. If not, I am sure I will see you out on the water.

Haven't joined the association, but keep meaning too. Will real soon.

Thanks.

Jared Jamison
86 C25 #5354 FK/TR "Saba Rocks" Richmond, VA

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 20:58:41

Changing the onboard receptacles to ground fault receptacles will not be of any help if a proper, low resistance grounding system isn't connected directly from the dockside shore power source, through the A.C.shore power power cord to the grounding posts on the ground fault receptacles.

Neither will the ground fault receptacles (GFIs) trip on ground fault if the hot and neutral wiring is reversed anywhere throughout the complete system from the power source to the GFIs.

Additionally, even in the event that the system is properly wired both hot and neutral, with a well connected, low resistance, intact, ground from shore panel to ship's GFI receptacles, installing GFI receptacles on board will not protect you from a damaged shore power cord if you are in the habit of handling it "hot" when connecting it to your boat via the main male receptacle.

The only way to properly provide GFI protection on board, is to ensure that a GFI circuit breaker is installed in the circuit breaker panel located on the dock.

Mark, Silver Girl, '83 tall rig, fin keel #3744

Edited to add that you can buy a cheap plug in polarity tester in any electrical supply house or Home Depot, which might be a good idea if you cruise and regularly find yourself plugging your boat into "strange" shore power systems.

Edited by - oldsalt on 10/20/2003 21:03:55

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2003 : 21:39:41

Good advice on the shore power side. It's important to hit the "test" button on the GFI outlets. If it doesn't trip after hooking everything up...investigate.

-don

Don & Freda Jones
"Swept Away" '83 C25 SR/FK
Southport, NC

Edited by - on

rclift
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 00:20:01

I would really like to see the topic of retrofitting the 110 AC system discussed a bit more. A few years ago I had my boat surveyed and the only glaring negative that the surveyor found was with the 110 system and especially the reverse polarity circuit. He said that the system was totally out of date and could easily lead to a discharge into the water. He insisted that I change it out for one that had a double pole circuit breaker that protected both the neutral and hot wires. He also had a problem with the 'home' romex electrical cable that was used to wire the outlets. I haven't noticed many discussions about modernizing the AC system in the past.

Ray Clift
1361 Buzz, Oregon

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 08:20:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
He insisted that I change it out for one that had a double pole circuit breaker that protected both the neutral and hot wires. He also had a problem with the 'home' romex electrical cable that was used to wire the outlets.
Ray Clift
1361 Buzz, Oregon
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

We had ours surveyed and got the same response. According to our surveyor, the setup we have isn't up to code and could wind up with the same results yours spoke of - discharge into the water. It is on our list to accomplish this next year.

As for the shore power and lights - we have a 10 amp (might be more??) charger permananently installed. When the boat is plugged in the batteries are charged and the cabin lights will not drain the battery. As a matter of fact, even with a dead battery, if the shore power is connected, the lights and electronics will work.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/images/layout/category_images/t_3964.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 11:57:23

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
He insisted that I change it out for one that had a double pole circuit breaker that protected both the neutral and hot wires. He also had a problem with the 'home' romex electrical cable that was used to wire the outlets.
Ray Clift
1361 Buzz, Oregon
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
We had ours surveyed and got the same response. According to our surveyor, the setup we have isn't up to code and could wind up with the same results yours spoke of - discharge into the water. It is on our list to accomplish this next year.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Man, that got my attention, and scares the &*%$ out of me. My son and I swim all the time off the end of our slip. Our marina owner's daughter was electrocuted while swimming by a frayed shorepower cord hanging in the water. So, we're all very careful to make sure the cords don't slack down to water level. Also, I always turn off the breaker at the box before attaching and detaching my cord. I'll start harassing my neighbors about doing the same.

Will someone (Duane?) please provide copious details on how a properly wired AC system should be installed to avoid electrical discharge into the water?

Thanks,

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:13:10

JB -

Essentially, its not the wiring so much as it is the original AC breaker box that was on the boat. It was the old-fashioned lever handled switch kind. I would imagine if it gets wet there could be problems. Needless to say, it is no longer up to snuff and we were told that it should be taken care of before any sale, since it will immediately deduct from the price of the boat. (Incidentally the other big item was that the cleats were not backed with anything and were loose).

I haven't rewired mine yet, but you'll want a good breaker that indicates reverse polarity. It should ideally have at least one additional switch for your outlets, more switches if you have other AC items (battery charger). I would then get the 12 volt bible for boats and read up on wiring.
I plan on installing this whenever I get my act together

<img src="http://www.bluesea.com/Products/small_images/8043.jpg" border=0> from Blue Sea Systems.

Since I haven't done it yet, I don't have all the details to provide you. Perhaps Leon can chime in with some details, as he has rewired his entire boat.

Lastly -

JB, I know I don't know all of the details of your situation or location, but PLEASE do not swim around docks or slips or let your son do it. It’s way too dangerous. I am extremely surprised your club/marina allows that, as it is a huge safety risk and possibly a legal risk for the club too. (Milby can probably talk to the legal responsibilities, but idiocy never stopped a lawsuit so I am sure that is why many clubs actually post the signage.)

I can think of a bunch of reasons not to swim around the slips, here are a few:
<ul><li>Some people, regardless of the law, discharge their head at the dock - do you want to go swimming in that? </li>
<li>All it takes is one moron with some reverse polarity wiring and you could be toast - or a dufus like me with 1978 original wiring and some sort of electrical fiasco</li>
<li>One good wake from a stink boater, and your head is between the slip and the boat.... which would lead to your wake</li>
<li> One unconscientious boater, and a swimmer that wanders too far from the slip and the prop becomes a human quisinart</li>
<li>In most instances, the algae, e-coli (see first Item) and bacterial content is extremely high in the shallow waters near docks, pilings, the boats etc.</li>
</ul>

I have seen almost all of these occur, there were not any deaths, but there could have been.

If you want to go for a swim, take your boat out onto the lake, lower the ladder and go for a dip....or go to the beach at Lake O Cherokees if there is one... Its not worth the risk.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/images/layout/category_images/t_3964.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

1grndslr
1st Mate

Members Avatar

34 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:39:04

I appreciate the advice on reefing and the electrical systems. I think I made the right decision to buy the C25. The tall rig does seem to have some complications. I'd like to add a bimini but it looks like the boom is too low. I read somewhere that some tall riggers have about 6" cut from the main to raise the boom. Any suggestions about this?

ted childs '86 C25 TR/FK

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:45:06

Hmm, learning every day on this forum....just put in a system and I thought I covered all bases, but it seems I missed the double main breaker....we'll have to fix that.

I do know the difference between residential Romex and boat 110 wire. (Other than the price---ouch...<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Residential is solid copper wire. It is very susceptible to corrosion in a marine environment, and, more importantly , can fail under repeated motion. Remember breaking metal by bending it 20 or so times?

Marine electrical 110 wire is made up of individual strands of smaller wire bundled into thicker wire, then insulated and grouped into cable. The wires are "tinned" to resist corrosion. In the highest available quality (read $$) each individual strand is tinned.
The main wire into the boat should be 10/3 (ten guage/three strand ie hot-neutral-ground) High load items like battery chargers/ACunits should be wired as per manufacturers instructions, usually a 12 gauge.

Oscar, Lady Kay 250 WB#618 (in the studio, no picture)

Edited by - oscar on 10/21/2003 14:49:52

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:53:51

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

The main wire into the boat should be 10/3 (ten guage/three strand ie hot-neutral-ground) High load items like battery chargers/ACunits should be wired as per manufacturers instructions, usually a 12 gauge.

Oscar, Lady Kay 250 WB#618 (in the studio, no picture)

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That is another difference from boating wire to regular domestic. 10/3 domestic would actually have 4 strands (red, black, white and a ground, however only 3 would be sheathed)

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/images/layout/category_images/t_3964.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Tony Dillon
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 14:58:12

Just finished replacing our curcuit breakers on Mental Floss last weekend. We used a Blue Sea with the double breaker for the hot leads entering the boat and added a third breaker to disconnect the battery charger. We had an unfortunate experience with the battery charger back in july from an excess of hydrogen out gassing from the battery. Now I can disconnect the charger and still make use of our other outlets without worrying about the battery being overcharged.

The double breaker also has the reverse polarity LED built in. By having a breakers installed on the neutral side of the breaker it makes the system safer in case it is plugged into shore power that was missed wired on the dock...which I have seen before.

Tony Dillon
Mental Floss

Edited by - on

jaredeking
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
16 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 15:20:11

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I just got an 86 Tall Rig about a month ago as well - congrats!

Jared Jamison
86 C25 #5354 FK/TR "Saba Rocks" Richmond, VA
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hey Jared Jamison,
My name is Jared King and I have an 86 Tall Rig as well. Small world.

Jared on LA BELLAMER in San Francisco Bay

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 16:27:26

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Essentially, its not the wiring so much as it is the original AC breaker box that was on the boat. It was the old-fashioned lever handled switch kind. I would imagine if it gets wet there could be problems.

I know I don't know all of the details of your situation or location, but PLEASE do not swim around docks or slips or let your son do it.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Duane,

Your list of concerns are all good. I won't elaborate, but everything except electricity is not an issue due to the particulars of our lake, cove, marina, occupants, etc. However, everyone swims in the cove, including many electrical engineering and techinician types. It is the only way to be at the lake in 90+ degrees and 80+ percent humidity between April and October. SeaRays, Bayliners and Cigarettes that go too fast, don't look-out, and don't know or observe the rules of the road make swimming in the middle of the lake the highest probability accident scenario. Although, we do it sometimes, anyway.

I have the original breaker/switch/polarity combination. Additionally, my dock box/meter has a breaker switch. Therefore, I figured that one or the other or both would trip, if needed.

Given that boats are mostly fiberglass and wood, the idea of a discharge into the water from a short doesn't make sense to me. What would be the cause and what would be the path?

Dock electrical system discharge makes more sense. Scary thought, but it is a breakered system that's installed above the water line. Swimming nearby can't be anymore dangerous than walking on the docks when it rains. Can it?

Shorepower cords dropped into the water make the most sense to me. So, what distance (i.e., radius) from the end of a showerpower cord dropped into the water would a harmful charge carry? How long would it take for the breaker to trip? Shouldn't it be almost instantaneous?

J.B. Manley
Antares '85 FK/SR #4849
Grand Lake O' the Cherokees
36°29'58" -94°59'59"

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2003 : 22:04:06

If a live shore power cord is dropped into the water, even into salt water which much more conductive than fresh, the dock panel breaker will not trip unless the breaker is of the GFI type. The resistance between the hot leg and the ground and/or the neutral is too high to cause a regular circuit breaker to trip and the water in the immediate vicinity will become energized. The female end of the cord may "sizzle", but a trip will not occur with a standard circuit breaker. If you handle a live, wet cord while retrieving it, the voltage may "trace" up from the female end to the exterior jacket of the cord causing electricution. This is especially hazardous in salt water which is extremely conductive.

As a trivial aside; distilled water is actually an insulator rather than a conductor. It's the salt or other dissolved minerals in solution that actually conduct electricity. There are plenty enough minerals in solution in fresh water to cause injury or death, but stray currents in salt water are far more apt to be deadly.

Mark, Silver Girl, '83 tall rig fin keel #3744

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 08:34:31

JB -

I am going to try and wing the answer on this one and hope that somebody who does know the scoop can either assist or correct me. As I understand it, if there is reverse polarity, any of the 3 prongs on the shore power can be wired improperly, which means that a boat, which could be grounded to the water, could have the hot wire essentially routed to the water if wired wrong.

As I also understand it, even in water, the electricity is going to find the quickest way to land, so a "certain number of feet" away from the cord, probably isn't a safe bet.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/images/layout/category_images/t_3964.jpg" border=0>

Check out this site too
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/ElectricalSystems.htm

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 10/22/2003 08:38:15

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 09:01:51

Adding to what Duane is saying, the problem gets worse than a hot wire to ground if on another finger pier across the marina, or in a nearby marina, the 110 hot legs are on the other polarity . Then, if two boats have the hot wire wrongly connected, a 220 volt potential exist between the two. Instead of the hots simply bleeding to ground, they are attracted to each other and this situation could charge the water for hundreds of yards. This is the greatest reason why properly wiring the hot lead is so important in a marine environment.

If there is a lot of galvanic corrosion and or sacrificial anode deterioration in a marina environment, look closely for not one boat with a hot to ground... but two. The offenders will not likely be at the same dock or marina.

<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/220volts.JPG" border=0>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/rr4.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruising Stories[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 10/22/2003 09:51:57

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2003 : 10:11:10

Our Catalina 25s are wired with an isolated grounding system so no matter how the polarity is set up, unless you have installed a ground from your panel to a grounding plate or your keel, no voltage can leak from your wiring system into the surrounding water unless your dock cord is submerged and is deffective.

The hazard is that if you have incorrrect polarity, the external surface of an appliance with a 3 wire plug can become energized and if you handle it while being yourself grounded, you will recieve a jolt.

A standard circuit breaker is not designed nor intended to prevent electrocution, it's only there to prevent an electrical fire in the event of a short circuit or serious overload condition. Only a GFI is intended as an anti electrocution device.

The reason that 2 pole circuit breakers are required (which are in fact illegal for 110 volt shoreside systems where neutrals must be grounded at the incomming service source and required to be solid) is to protect against electrical fire in the event of reverse polarity wiring, since if the intended neutral is wrongly energized, it too is then protected from overcurrent.

Mark, Silver Girl '83 tall rig fin keel # 3744

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.