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Garhauer Products

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/07/2003 : 10:36:22

I received my first Garhauer products yesterday. The first thing I want to say is that our boats are not on the Garhauer radar. They make OEM products for Catalina and target 30s in there after market efforts. When I first wrote them to ask about the turnbuckles I was told to call the office and ask for Guido, he seems to be the owner. Guido was helpful but not fluent in 25ese. He told me to simply call the main number and order them! I had to get the turnbuckles from my local guy, the Garhauer sales person/receptionist did not seem to be able to handle my asking whether they would fit my boat, come with the extra stuff that they apparently do come with, or the availability of them. The turnbuckles were $27 and included the "T" bolt, shackle, and clevis pin plus the needed cotters. I got seven 25 series blocks with springs for my halyard plate, the halyard plate, a single 25 series curved base cheek block, and a double 25 series curved base cheek block (all blocks with the bearing option). It is interesting stuff. The price is definitely right. The halyard plate is awesome but must be drilled, I guess it is time to get a drill press, (Hey Leon what is an adequate drill press from Sears? What do the bits need to be made of for SS? Can I use any oil for cutting oil?) Garhauer had not shipped my order in a week so I called to see what was up, they said they were glad I called because they did not know what plate I needed for my boat. I talked to an engineer, told him it was an ’82 25 and he said “oh we have those.” Bottom line here on the ordering experience is they need a little hand holding and monitoring. The blocks look like they were made in shop class. They still had polishing paste on them from the finish station. The springs and split rings are not polished, I have to assume they are SS. The shackles fit the bales very loosely. Hey appear to be products that have never had a product manager. (I used to be one.) There is no effort to make them “SPARKLE”, if you were to see them side by side with Harken, Schaefer, and even Ronstan you would think they were not serious players in the market. It is as if engineers were allowed to produce a product with out the guidance of Marketing minds.
For what it is worth, the 25 series are the size of Harken Big Bullets that means the cheeks are a little too big for my boom but I will use them anyway. The double will stand out a little further than I would like. They have four mounting holes so I will use SS pop rivets. The 25 series are fine for the halyard plate. I know they come with a 10 year warranty but I will reserve judgment on their performance for the dollar until I spend a season with them.
Does anyone else have any Garhauer comments?

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 10:55:32

Frank,

From my dealings with Garhauer I suspect that 1) Garhauer's retail and on-line direct marketing programs are relatively new and not much more than a second thought, 2) Catalina and Catalina Direct, among other builders and chandleries, order parts from Garhauer by specification and, therefore, Garhauer doesn't relate to boat model references, and 3) the small premium extracted by Catalina Direct for acting as intermediary is probably worth the price in the long run.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 11/07/2003 10:56:05

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 11:14:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Antares
 Frank,

From my dealings with Garhauer I suspect that 1) Garhauer's retail and on-line direct marketing programs are relatively new and not much more than a second thought, 2) Catalina and Catalina Direct, among other builders and chandleries, order parts from Garhauer by specification and, therefore, Garhauer doesn't relate to boat model references, and 3) the small premium extracted by Catalina Direct for acting as intermediary is probably worth the price in the long run.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
bingo

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 13:39:56

I'm doing some serious trailer modifications right now, and had to drill about 30 1/2" holes into 3/16" angle iron. I bought a double point bit by dewalt at Lowes. It is made for cutting into hard to drill metals. It definitely outcut a regular bit. I also used some oil. Hand drilled, I have no drill press. I wanna git me one of them. (sorry, I'm trying to learn how to speak Tennessean)
I haven't had much luck dealing with garhauer either. I prefer to go through Catalina Direct too. Although I did but a Garhauer lifting davit and installed it on my 25. It makes installing my heavy Honda a snap.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 15:17:29

Sounds Like Garhauer and Catalina are a perfect match....basically a great product a little sloppy in the execution

Actually I got a mast plate from Garhauer directly, it was cheap and it fit. Took a week to get it.

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 15:28:28

Oscar,

I found an icon that might better fit your mood today.

Edited by - Sea Trac on 11/07/2003 15:29:12

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 15:31:13

fhopper,

My impression of Garhauer products, based on very limited exposure, is that they are well built but poorly marketed. Based on price and quality, I think they could earn a much larger market share than they presently have. Their top management may not be all that interested in retail marketing.

As for drill presses, if you don't mind "Made In China", check out [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/"]Harbor Feight Tools[/url]. (Some people have moral/political objections to doing business with China -- I don't completely disagree.) I have one similar to [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=38142"]ITEM 38142-6VGA[/url] which seems to be fine for home shop use. Other potential concerns when dealing with [url="http://www.harborfreight.com/"]Harbor Feight Tools[/url] include very mixed quality (some very good brand names, most generics kind of poor, some really horrible no-name junk), many, many products not made in U.S.A., not real concerned if you're less than 100% happy, lots and lots of mail order catalogs once they know you're a tool junky and where to find you. And can you imagine trying to get repair parts for a cheap Chinese power tool, even a large stationary one? On the other hand, although I'm not at all impressed with Sears power tools, and I've broken Sears drill presses, I've been able to get the needed repair parts eventually. When it comes to buying quality new machine tools, I don't know of any consistant exceptions to the general rule: "You don't get what you don't pay for".

For drilling stainless steel, top quality drill bits are critical. Stainless steel eats common high carbon tool steel cutting edges for breakfast. I use plated drill bits (I forget which alloy). 'Most any lube oil will probably work -- I use machinists cutting and tapping oil myself. If you happen to be cutting stainless steel with carbide and tearing up oiled tool edges, try cutting it dry. Feed rate is very important with stainless steel. If you're not agressive enough, the bit will just heat up and polish or work harden the material instead of cutting and removing it. If you're too agressive, things break. That's one big reason people get poor results working stainless steel with hand held tools.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 15:35:25

I've bought Garhauer products directly from them and I have not had any problems. The last items I purchased were single block track cars, and if memory serves me, they were half the price for comparable Schaefer or Harken cars.

As for Garhauer not knowing the C25, keep in mind that they are an equipment manufacturer first (like Harken, Schaefer, Ronstan,...) so it doesn't surprise me that they lack boat specific knowledge. If one needs specific advice, it is probably better to call someone like Catalina Direct, who deals mainly with one brand of boat.

Because of their prices, whenever I need equipment for the boat, I always look to Garhauer first.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 19:47:32

I'm an herbivoor. There are a number of pictures in my file that would be appropriate. However, I've not been censored yet on this forum, and I'm going to try and keep it that way.......

Unless a link to with appropriate disclaimer would be acceptable, mommie

Oscar
250WB#618 Lady Kay on the Chesapeake

Edited by - Oscar on 11/07/2003 19:49:37

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 21:07:50

Titanium Nitride (TiN) is a common coating on modern drill bits..
helps with hardness and a bit of self-lubricating capability.

Also regular lubricating oil applied to a drilling/machining operation
will usually ruin the tool quickly. Get some special machining
oil like 'Rapid Tap' or a water soluble machining oil.

The bit angle, feed pressure and speed of the cutting
edge are very critical in stainless. Consult a drilling 'rpm' guide
for the proper setting on your drill press. Should be lots of them
available on the web.

Matter of fact, here's one...
http://www.winsloweng.com/articles/drillChart_content.htm

IMHO, Grizzly has some fairly decent Chinese made tools... they
much go through them and make sure they are OK before they
put them on the market.

I've been very pleased with Garhauer products... nice stuff. Not really geared to consumer-level requests... but the folks are pretty helpful.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 21:36:35

I had my rigger put holes in my mast base plate, for a song... I figured I came out ahead compared to the bits I would have bought (and the stress on my hand drill) doing it myself. That's a heavy piece of stainless.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 21:43:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Leon Sisson
 fhopper,

My impression of Garhauer products, based on very limited exposure, is that they are well built but poorly marketed. For drilling stainless steel, top quality drill bits are critical. Stainless steel eats common high carbon tool steel cutting edges for breakfast. I use plated drill bits (I forget which alloy). 'Most any lube oil will probably work -- I use machinists cutting and tapping oil myself. -- Leon Sisson
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have been very bad, I bought a 2/3hp 12" 5 speed from Sears. I got the 15 bit Cobalt bit drill index. My press says to drill at 880 RPM in the hole size I will use with the halyard plate. Tha advise to be a bit agressive was new and very welcome, I am sure I would have gone way too slow.

Edited by - on

FrankM
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 21:43:12

I've had a similar reaction to Garhauer. At the last sail expo,
I bought a couple of cheek blocks for my 25 footer, and I special ordered a couple of turning blocks.I got the distinct impression they didn't really want to talk about series 25 stuff. My buddy who is grossly overbuilding his Columbia 38 got a great deal on some larger stuff. When we sat down for lunch to compare our savings, I had saved 50 cents. He had saved over $100 bucks.So, he went back to buy another set of blocks. Turnes out the Elder Garhauer had underpriced the items
and the younger Garhauer was not about to sell any more at that price.About a month later and a couple of phone calls,I
recieved my turning blocks. One of them was not tightened too well and I ended up with ball bearings all over the back of my beat up Camry Wagon bed. They were quite nice about sending me new balls. I had a hell of a time getting those things back in there.Then I decided that the two cheek blocks were not really as substantial as my old sheafer blocks, so I'm going to buy the series 30 stuff. All in all though their priced are less and the quality is good FM

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 21:45:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by FrankM
 All in all though their priced are less and the quality is good FM
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Are you being completely Frank with us?

Edited by - on

weluvlife
Navigator

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166 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2003 : 22:08:10

My opinion of Garhauer is two sided. Their customer service has been excellent for me, although their workmanship has a lot to be desired.
I've had the polishing paste left all over the products, set screws left out, block barrel threads not coated with thread lock and coming apart, wrong parts sent, parts not matching photos in catalog, etc etc....

Yes their prices are fair and they are always very quick to correct any problem. This I can really respect them for.

Mark

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 00:23:19

A quick and dirty cutting fluid is 1 part oil mixed with 1 part mineral spirits...

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 06:53:05

Most of Sears power tools are now made in China. I have seen a rapid drop in their quality of hand tools too. I took a broken socket wrench back to them (remember the good old days of Sears Craftsman) and they replaced it with a used rebuilt wrench. When I questioned them about it I was told "well, you are bringing in a used tool" It's no wonder their sales are way down and stock prices too.
I try to stay away from Chinese goods as their manufacture is of poor quality, and I certainly don't truse what kind of steel they are using.
That's my frank opinion, I may be wrong.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 08:16:40

I don't think there is a wrong or right to the issue of import or foreign tools. A tool by definition is a device that aids in accomplishing a task. If the tool gets the job done... then so be it, regardless of whether it carries a designer label.

I've purchased the imports for a long time mostly because they get the job done and my tool dollar stretches a lot farther enabling me to have more of them. Some of them exceed the quality of domestic brands and many of them don't. Some would be classified as throw away tools because to get parts for them is not reasonable... but parts for domestic tools very often make buying new a more economical choice.

Among my foreign stuff are metal lathe, milling machine, drill press, and a very many hand tools. Some of this stuff is old American design and engineering... The lathe for example is a South Bend.

Some of what I have now is twenty years old... an impact tool for example... still going strong with the only occasional use that I give it and at one forth the price of domestic... it has served me well and stretched my dollar.

Some stuff amazes me... a small right angle grinder for 1/5 the price. The bearings rattle when its used... but I've used it a great deal and it keeps on ticking.

As far as the idea that we are supporting cheap labor practices in China, I think thats a lot of spin by domestic manufactures. Buying foreign gives jobs to those people and ultimately helps the global economy to find some balance by raising their worth and diminishing ours.

We all know the reasons domestic products cost so much and are unafordable now for most of us... and its unfortunate... but a reality.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2003 : 09:49:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 I don't think there is a wrong or right to the issue of import or foreign tools. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
2 cents worth:
When I was a product manager for an electronics engineering firm I tried to move some manufacturing from silicon valley to China. After a year (9 months of which was delay time) I realized that the corruption was too much of an obstacle for a mere 50 million dollar company to deal with. We simply could not get enough of our own people on the ground to control things. We had to give up. We tried Singapore next and they were pretty much the same just more sophisticated about it. 9-11 proved what globally distributed manufacturing can do. Any link in a supply chain can bring a manufacturer to a stop and if it is a core technology manufacturer it can bring an industry to a stop. We have at least one hundred years of corruption, miss-directed funds, and employee abuse in China before any of the “redistribution of wealth” shows any sign of helping those people or any other third world country. As with most old people, I will be ready to go when my time comes because this world does not look like the place I fought a war to protect. When I step back from intellectualism to that happy place in my head, I envy the days of geo-political isolationism.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2003 : 14:44:54

The single spring on my original Garhauer motor mount broke a couple years ago. I called "Jim" in customer service, who said he could replace the H-bracket with a newer one (which has two springs) plus add brass busshings for much less than the cost of a whole new bracket. Being somewhat "local" (a relative term in So. Cal.), I took the old bracket to Jim. He seemed very willing to help. A couple weeks later he delivered a bracket directly to me (he was visiting a friend at a marina near mine). But it appears that I got a completely new mount. I suppose he was originally just trying to be helpful, took it on as a personal challenge and got over his head when he found that the new H-bracket didn't fit on the old mount. Regardless, he honored his original price quote which he didn't really have to. I was very impressed by this.

In summary, Leon nailed it when suggesting Garhauer is not too focused on the retail market. I think most of Garhauer's success stems from the quality parts and service it supplies to many boat manufacturers at a price others cannot match. I also think Catalina Direct fills the retail service role well (and charges a little premium for it) for Garhauer products if you believe you cannot get proper service directly from Garhauer.

Regarding Chinese imports, anyone who has refinanced their home mortgage, getting a lower payment or taking money, has benefitted from the huge deflationary pressure China is putting on the world economy. LA/Long Beach Harbor cannot expand fast enough to keep up with the growing demand products shipped from China present. The domestic market seems to be more accepting of quality issues as evidenced by the ever increasing "Made in China" labels I see everywhere. I think we are now just seeing the beginning of this trend.

Edited by - RichardG on 11/09/2003 14:48:24

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