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I might be spoiled

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ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/17/2003 : 13:54:12

An impromptu vacation found me and my wife in Charlotte Harbor, Florida (betweeen Punta Gorda and Fort Myers) chartering an Island Packet 31 last week.

This was the first time we had sailed an Island Packet and they are really nice. We lived aboard and it was VERY comfortable. It's amazing how much difference 6 ft. of length and a few feet of beam make for the cabin.

They sail nice too. Sure they're heavy, so they don't do well in light wind (< 7 kt.s), but this one sailed well.
I had read articles about their balance and it was pretty cool.
There was one time (seems like it was a beam reach

) when it sailed itself straight and true and the course didn't veer off one way or the other. I did NOT have the wheel locked (a knob screws in to lock the wheel), yet it kept an extremely straight course (looking at the compass) for 15 or 20 minutes at least.

My wife wants to live aboard a sailboat eventually and I'm not convinced. But she gets motion sickness

so she wants a full-keel and a lot of displacement.
The IP 31 isn't big enough to live on, but maybe a 38 ?

Charlotte Harbor is a nice area to sail ... some very pretty islands to the south, soft sandy bottom and miles and miles of open space without much traffic. The only thing is that it's not deep. Average depth is probably 8 or 10 feet, so you can't get very close to the islands without knowing where to go

.
We DID have a "cheeseburger in paradise" (on Cabbage Cay).

I live on a beautiful island, but those Island Packets are beckoning.

Cap'n Dave
Sailing The Blues
1986 C25 sr/sk #5413

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2003 : 17:07:19

A few years ago, I also chartered the Island Packet 31 in Charlotte Harbor, and love the area, but was not impressed with the IP's sailing qualities. I know a lot of people like the IP, but I don't think it would be either a good coastal cruiser or bluewater boat. Because of its miserable light air performance, it would be an awful coastal cruiser, forcing you to motor, rather than sail, much of the time. If used as a bluewater boat, it would track well, but it would also be slow, especially in light air. When you are in light air close to shore, you can run the motor to get to your destination, but when you're making a long passage, you can't use up your fuel supply that far from land, so, you just have to sit it out. Speed doesn't only provide a fast passage, it enables you to carry much less food and water and fuel and other supplies to sustain the crew through the passage. Also, the longer it takes you to make a passage, the longer you are subject to the hazards of the sea.

There are many boats that track well or can be easily rigged with self-steering, that have comfortable interior layouts, that are safe offshore, and that have very good sailing qualities. We don't have to settle for a boat with poor sailing qualities in order to have most of the good qualities of the IP.

If you want a go-anywhere boat with very good performance, look at the Tartans in the 37+ foot range. The Catalina 36s and 38s are hard to beat for interior space and comfort, and have made many long passages. There is more debate as to whether they are good choices for bluewater sailing, but they would make outstanding liveaboard coastal cruisers.

I love sailing, but, if I lived on a beautiful island, like you, I'd want to own a sailboat, but it would be pretty hard to drag me away from that beautiful island. Just my opinion.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2003 : 17:10:44

Oh boy, we've got a bad case here, and I know one when I see one. Tell the truth....spend a lot of time on yachtworld.com? Yep, thought so. Well, there's only one solution....

get one!

Oscar

Lady Kay 250 WB #618

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2003 : 01:16:03

Yacht World Cape Dory 40 now were talking.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2003 : 06:37:54

A friend had IP on my club on the Hudsom. Bought it because of the comfort and didn't think about the sailing characteristics, especially in the waters we sailed. Doldrums for much of the summer. A beautiful boat, but . . .. He sold it after a couple of years and bought a Colgate 26, a good boat for our club, fun to sail. He sails it, rather than sits aboard it.

If I expected to move from place to place, then the IP is not the boat for me. Just my thoughts.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2003 : 07:02:44

Just curious, What were the names of the IP 31's? A friend of mine has one in charter there.

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2003 : 23:36:09

I was on Sojourner. 1986 model.
I think it was recently purchased by the present owner after he chartered it.
Southwest Fla Yachts is a good outfit.

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2003 : 08:49:54

My friend Gary, who is in marketing for GILL, had an IP-31 and loved it.

He said the boat sailed through rough weather like a battleship. Very strong and forgiving.

PW

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2003 : 09:20:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My friend Gary, who is in marketing for GILL, had an IP-31 and loved it.

He said the boat sailed through rough weather like a battleship. Very strong and forgiving.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There are lots of good sailing boats that will sail through rough weather like a battleship. By far, most sailing is done in light to moderate winds. A boat that is only good in rough weather or high winds, and that is slow and sluggish most of the time would be very unsatisfying most of the time. A lot of people swear by IPs, but, as Don and Brooke said, they can be disappointing. It all depends on what you expect of a boat, and how you plan to use it.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2003 : 09:51:36

The combination of good light air speed and being 'bluewater' seakindly is darn pretty hard to achieve. A few designs that come to mind are the Crealock 37, Tayana 38, and the Catalina 38 (the older S&S designed model).

Of course, those boats are a bit longer than the 31' IP being discussed. I think down in the "low 30 foot range" the goal of speed + bluewater becomes even more elusive.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5932 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2003 : 10:09:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think down in the "low 30 foot range" the goal of speed + bluewater becomes even more elusive.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In Dave's original post, he was considering a boat in the 38 foot range, but the Tartan 34 is an example of a bluewater capable boat that has reasonably good overall sailing performance in the low 30s size range.

Edited by - on

Sea Trac
Master Marine Consultant

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Vanuatu
1357 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2003 : 10:28:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 [quote]In Dave's original post, he was considering a boat in the 38 foot range...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Am I officially a broken record now?

Shannon, Shannon, Shannon

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2003 : 14:42:12

As the bluewater boat discussion goes on, I feel the need to mention the guy, maybe crazy, who sailed a Potter 19 to Hawaii.

I guess he would fall into the light displacement category.

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2003 : 10:14:10

If the quality interior is a big part of the draw have a look at used Endeavour yachts. The company now makes catamarans but their defunct line of monohulls had Catalina-style fin keels for sailing performance with beautiful joinery on the inside. Yachtworld.com is indeed the place to go to have a look at anything used that's out there...

Rich Kokoska

Edited by - on

Chip Hunt
Navigator

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120 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2003 : 12:32:16

i know that people will post the many drawbacks to this brand of boat, but i am very fond of benneteaus. i live in charleston, sc, and the benneteaus are made in marion, sc (about 2 hrs away). their official US dealership is right here in charleston, so i have seen lots of them on the water. they make a wide variety of boats in the 31' to 41' range. because so many of them are used in charter fleets, the amenities down below are many. the interiors on the newer boats are just stunning. i know, i know, they are not the greatest boats for bluewater passages, but how many of us are making regular bluewater passages anyway? they do not have full keels. in fact, many of them have shoal drafts and draw five feet or less, making them perfect as coastal cruisers. they also perform better in light air due to the keel setup. check out a benneteau. just my 2 cents.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2003 : 17:50:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chip Hunt
 check out a benneteau. just my 2 cents.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dude, they are french.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2003 : 22:33:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chip Hunt
 check out a benneteau. just my 2 cents.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dude, they are french.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ditto your comments.

I've chartered several of the largest Beneteaus in the BVI and was very impressed with their well thought out design and quality. I actually preferred them over similar Catalinas. But I wouldn't touch any product produced by a French owned comapny.

Edited by - oldsalt on 12/23/2003 15:39:18

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2984 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 08:40:36

The previous two post have political content that doesn't fit this web site.... it should be deleted.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 09:38:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 The previous two post have political content that doesn't fit this web site.... it should be deleted.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I guess I should elaborate so as to reduce the amount of personal projection on the part of the reader.

In my experience the french do two things well, clothes and wine, (their food is much over rated). I have never seen an example of french engineering that was of a caliber that I would want to own. Their auto industry builds bizzare and poor cars, (Nissan is doomed), they thought the Concorde was a good idea! I would not spend money on a french boat for a lot of reasons and the biggest is I do not have any confidence in their products. We have four or five at our club and they all look years older than they are, and most don't sail well.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 10:18:33

"... political content that doesn't fit this web site..."

I'm with Arlyn on that... lots of other sites are available for that sort of thing. Political and religous discussions almost always result in anger and hard feelings without really solving anything in the process.

As far as the French being "genetically" unable to produce a good boat... not so sure on that one either. They are right up there with the Kiwis and Aussies as being the most sailing-oriented nation in the world, especially in the area of long-distance ocean racing. Most of the top long-distance sailors and boats are French.

I think the globalization of technology in general has removed a lot of the er..."personality" of regional products that used to be found in different cultures. Whether this turns out to be a good thing or not remains to be seen. (Always thought a Citron was the oddest thing on the road myself).

When it comes to Beneteau's, I think they are being built for a a targeted market... the charter business. As such, they are designed to be relatively inexpensive, look good for the guests, and perform ok in coastal waters.

My guess is that many bareboat charter companies don't want to do a lot of maintenance on their boats. You own them until they reach the point of needing some TLC, then turn them over. Same strategy as RV rental companies. Hence you may find a lot of Beneteau's on the market that look just a little "tired".

Edited by - on

Ellis Bloomfield
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 10:41:11

In reply to flopper's post on French engineering. There is a pretty great example of engineering that many Americans take great pride in. The French designed, engineered, built, dismantled, shipped to this country, reassembled and erected and gave us as a gift, the Statue of Liberty. It's been a welcome symbol over the years for those seeking refuge in our country and for many of us sometimes passing by it a symbol of a deep and lasting international friendship.

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 18:37:17

I am not bashing France or anyone else.
Believe in God or any politician if you want and that's yer business.
I have liked Beneteaus (also since I'm a south carolinian) and only sailed one once. As for owning one ... I'd probably be happy with one.
But this discussion WAS kind of about high-end boats that were very comfortable below and well balanced sailing (considering my mate's predilection to get motion sickness).

I also have driven a Renault a lot around southern France (my uncle lives there and let me borrow his 20 yr. old Renault) and the car performed really well over rough rural roads. And as for Citroen ... I kinda like the "in your face, I don't care if it's unconventional, I want to make it that way" idea of French auto makers to make wierd cars. What other car lets you raise a flat tire off the pavement by flipping a switch to control a pneumatic suspension? Easier than a jack, eh?!

Edited by - ddlyle on 12/23/2003 18:40:05

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 19:06:03

Can I change the subject and ask a chartering question? Seems a few of you have chartered sailboats. What type of credentials/certificates so on... did the leasing companies require from you before you signed the contract and sailed off with there yacht for a week? Thanks was wondering for a future trip.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 21:01:19

Sailgal, having chartered from both The Moorings and Sunsail, I have enjoyed the Sunsail experience more. Sunsail is a British company and the fellow sailors you meet lend an international flavor to your cruising.

As a first time charterer, you would be better off with a "flotilla" cruise where you sail in the company of a group acompanied by a company crewed boat who will offer you any assistance you need and where you'll meet each morning for a briefing on navigating to the day's destination. You'll go over the local charts and guidebook and get tips on what to see and where to go.

If you feel comfortable, you can wander off if you choose and meet up with your group at night. Most flotilla cruises set aside one day where you can anchor away from the group at night.

The Moorings offers some flotilla charters but Sunsail offers them almost every week.

Where you choose to charter as a beginner makes a big diference in the skills you'll need. The British Virgin Islands are ideal for a first time charter due to the line of sight navigation, fair winds and calm sea conditions.

The charter company will request that you complet a sailing resume and if your experience is confined to sailing your Catalina 25 you will be qualified to rent anything in the fleet. The charter company will check you out on their boat to acquaint you with the systems and you'll feel comfortable in no time.

Certficates are not required, no matter what those who promote them will tell you. The first time I chartered, my "resume" was limited to experience with my Catalina 25 and I was allowed to charter a Beneteau 461, no questions asked, and which I found to handle in no time.

On one BVI flotilla cruise I took with Sunsail, one of the group was a young family from Germany who had never sailed before except for the fact that they spent the previous week learning to sail on a very small keelboat at a Sunsail Resort. They chartered a Beneteau 38 the following week and had a heck of a geat time with absolutely no problems.

To answer your question, the "credentials" you'll need is a check made out to the charter company with your name signed on the bottom line. Don't be intimidated, give chartering a try it's fantastic.

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2003 : 22:15:09

Sailgal, we chartered a Beneteau 331 last fall. It was a great experience. An instructor familiarized us with the boat, checked us against all the basic coastal cruising requirements and turned us loose for some cruising and anchoring out while on our own.
We gained enough confidence to do this again, soon. The flotilla idea has a lot of appeal too. Charter companies know where the best anchorages are and can judge reasonable sail schedules between those points.
Good luck. Use a reputable charter company. You won't regret the experience.

Edited by - on

ddlyle
Captain

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302 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2003 : 10:27:11

Chartering is great.
It's a nice way to experience other boats and expand one's horizons.
There is usually a form to complete where one describes their experience. Also the company's rep will talk to you to learn about your sailing experience. For me, not only owning a C 25, but working on a 65' sailboat and having my USCG Master's license with sail endorsement helped reassure the charter company that I wouldn't hurt their boat too bad.
Also, when you are checked out on the boat (where the company rep will familiarize you with the boat's components), any questions you ask will help the rep gauge your knowledge. For example, one question I asked the rep was to show me how to reef the main (on this particular boat).
Admittedly, there are safeguards to the charter company. Like a lengthy contract and sizeable security deposit.
I found some charter companies by using sail magazine's website.
Whether you charter for a week or a day, go have fun!!
Easier than hauling your boat to another location.

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.