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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

downsides? heresies?

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reuben
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/24/2003 : 09:01:56

Knowing this is a forum created and inhabited by people who love the C250, and having myself fallen awfully hard for one (a wingkeel, still at the boatyard, awaiting survey) let me lob this into the fray: what would you say are the downsides of this vessel? What do wish Catalina had done differently; what do you wish a 250 owner had told you before you bought your own; and had you to do it over again - would you?

Many thanks,

Reuben

Reuben
C-250 WK #499
Bayfield, WI

Edited by - reuben on 12/24/2003 09:14:43

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2003 : 11:05:11

The only thing I think I would change if I could is go from WB to a wing. I still enjoy the few extra inches of draft the WB provides which was my main concern when I bought the boat. Other than that, maybe if some kind person who bought a brand new c250 hit lotto and sold it real dirt cheap the week after...never used, every option...then maybe I'd of bought mine used.

Final report....very happy.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2003 : 11:25:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by reuben
 Knowing this is a forum created and inhabited by people who love the C250, and having myself fallen awfully hard for one (a wingkeel, still at the boatyard, awaiting survey) let me lob this into the fray: what would you say are the downsides of this vessel? What do wish Catalina had done differently; what do you wish a 250 owner had told you before you bought your own; and had you to do it over again - would you?

Many thanks,

Reuben
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The factory marine head. (There was a comment the factory has upgraded some of the problem areas.)

I think the factory should add weight to the bow of the wing keel model to get it to sit the way it was designed too.

The owner’s manual on my 2000wk was out dated. It showed items that were not on the boat and did not show item that were.

The only thing I would do differently is get the teak and holly cabin sole instead of the carpet.

I did not know about this forum when I purchased my C250.
I also would have liked to been told about the squatting stern before I found out for myself on launch day. It was quite shocking.

The only issues I had with this boat were easy problems to fix.

I would definitely purchase this boat again.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2003 : 12:36:51

1. Make sure the port & starboard cockpit combing storage areas don't leak. (the cubby holes in the sides).
2. make sure the rudder isn't cracked.
3. throw out the cooler and get one with more insulation.

other than that we really like our 250 wing keel.

Edited by - frankr on 12/24/2003 12:37:34

reuben
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2003 : 16:32:59

Bryan, did you move some weight into the bow to fix the "squatting stern" problem? Your boat looks properly balanced in the photos. Has anyone else dealt with this?

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2003 : 17:04:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by reuben
 Bryan, did you move some weight into the bow to fix the "squatting stern" problem? Your boat looks properly balanced in the photos. Has anyone else dealt with this?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh yes, there have been many discussions on this subject.
Here are 3 of them

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=860

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2225

http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5250

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bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2003 : 08:06:20

Reuben;
We've sailed our 250wb for four years now, I've made some little changes to reefing, the rudder, but have kept the boat basically the same as delivered. One of the reasons that I picked this boat was the ease of hauling and launching, the centerboare (I like small boats, and the control that the board gives you) and the very simple systems.
We have talked about buying a new boat, just because this one is a 96, we will probably buy another 250wb.
If you enjoy your new boat half as much as we have, you are in for a great time.
Bill
C250wb #134 Serendipity

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2003 : 10:08:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">what would you say are the downsides of this vessel? What do wish Catalina had done differently; what do you wish a 250 owner had told you before you bought your own; and had you to do it over again - would you?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good question...all boats have design goals that mean compromises and the c250 has its share. Among them are the hull form and standing rig.

For a complete explanation, its necessary to include a history lesson. The mid to late '80s saw hard times in the yacht industry. The economy was bad, larger boats had been slapped with an excise tax and there was a surplus of used boats for sale. Boat builders were struggling to survive, many didn't. Roger MacGregor had found a niche market for a new design and Catalina went after its market share. The niche was for an easily trailerable design that provided basic amenities for the now downsized family unit of 3-4, in a sense, a water RV. On this design and the reworked MK II C22, Frank Butler hoped to survive the storm.

This is my speculative opinion that before the design was ready for market in the mid '90s, the future got brighter for yacht builders as larger boat sales returned. I think this set the stage for two things.
1. Catalina resources were stretched thin. Frank Butler had always operated on a thin management staff and with larger boat sales revitalized, they took a lot of focus.
2. The new design as all new designs had bugs and it seemed apparent to a great many that Catalina had not done a great deal of field testing prior to releasing the 250. Having said that, it may be Frank's way... he is a pretty good listener and makes himself available. He has been very good at refining his efforts by listening to the buyers. Frank obviously was successful because of some of his personal hates. He hated wasting money on extra middle management, on advertising and I'm betting on too much field testing, relying on his tried and tested method of letting the buyer sort out the bugs.

Now with the new 250 design released, it had problems. After the initial surge of intrigued interest, sales fell flat. Water ballast suffered a stigmatism brought on by poor handling of not only the C250 but other designs. All were given to adverse weather helm. Designers were caught unaware of the effect of the hull forms necessary for internal ballast. Almost all the designs needed more rudder control and more reef points.

To save the 250 which was the child of Gerry Douglas, a wing keel version was designed and sales returned. The effect however was that the wing keel redeemed the water ballast by showing that it wasn't the water ballast that was to be blamed for the the handling difficulties, but rather the hull form. With larger rudder with adequate control to tame the hull form, the design started to be appreciated for both models.

There is a sense then, that the wing keel inherited the hull form of a boat designed for internal ballast and had a wing keel boat been the specific design, the form likely would have been different in that it would have had less hardness to her bilges and more rocker and therefore been less subject to undesirable heeling forces brought on by a radical asymmetrical heeled footprint.

What I'm saying is that these things were legitimate trades for the water ballast which enjoyed the easier trailering and launching, but on the wing keel may represent compromises without yielding as great of returns. Or are there?

The extra space inside is still viable to the family oriented boat. The flattish rocker is still viable to providing a good ride in a seaway, although she will pound a bit if pushed to fast in a seaway. The initial righting moment provided by the square bilges likely keeps the squeamish member of the family happier.

The most redeeming benefit for the wing keel is likely her light air performance. A flatter wider hull form offers less whetted surface. The increased hull form righting arm requires less keel weight. The c250 wing for example has a far lighter wing than does the older c25 design. Combined, the reduced whetted surface and displacement produce a hot performer in light air. That she is required by discipline to be sailed flat because of her hull form, once grasped... turns out to be benefit.

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 12/30/2003 : 22:17:11

Reuben-

We've been very happy with our wing keel; however, there are limitations which will eventually result in us moving up to a bigger boat. We moved up from a Prindle 16 & a Force 5 to the C250WK - making the move from daysailers to a "real" boat. We weren't really sure what kind of sailing we would enjoy when we purchased our boat. We sail on the lower Chesapeake & its tributaries both daysailing and weekend to weeklong cruises. This has been a great boat to combine daysailing & cruising and to learn the ways of a keel boat.

The C250 is a wonderful light air boat, but will get overpowered in higher winds & reefing early is a must (as is a 2nd reef point). Also, the ride can get uncomfortable in 3-4 foot seas which tend to be choppy on the Bay since the boat is so light. It's a trade-off.

Most C250s have outboards & they can be noisy if you motor much. We try not to motor, but when cruising there are sometimes long days between destinations & lingering in a light breeze going 2 knots is not practical. On the other hand, outboards are easy to maintain. Another trade-off.

The C250 has tons of room for its size; however, there are few lockers (only one hanging locker) & the storage available can be hard to access under the berths. I don't really have any modern designs of similar size to compare, but more "traditional" designs tend to have less living space & more practical storage for cruising.

Excessive weather-helm has been discussed already & can be fixed with moving weight forward & a balanced rudder.

We love our C250! My advise would be that if you love it - buy it! They seem to hold their value & are a very versitile boat. And you can't beat the Association for support & advise!

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