Association Forum - A very interesting C25...

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

A very interesting C25...

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2004 : 15:49:28

I found this [url="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2456898266&category=26433#ebayphotohosting"]1979 C25 [/url] on eBay. It is a converted swinger with an inboard and a few other interesting mods...

Don Lucier

North Star SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 01/29/2004 20:26:10

pwhallon
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 19:59:56

Is that one of them thar ballienced ruders.

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

Members Avatar

123 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 20:09:39

Pretty cool looking! I've occasionally considered fabricating removable fiberglass or wood panels to slip under the poptop to make it a "pilothouse" in the winter. Looks like they went for a permanent fix.

But what the hang is that ugly growth on the rudder? I can see adding onto the leading edge to balance it, but why add an extra foot of drag on the trailing edge?

Randall
79 SK/TR "Kite" #1459

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

Members Avatar

123 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 20:16:56

Ooooohhh, now I get it! He lopped the bottom off the rudder to give it the same draft as the keel! I think I would have opted to modify it to a kick-up rudder.

Randall

Edited by - on

Chip Hunt
Navigator

Members Avatar

120 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2004 : 21:22:48

that rudder looks like it should be replaced. i wouldnt trust that thing one bit in the harbor, and certainly not offshore.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 00:38:10

There's a line somewhere between "customized" and "butchered". Based on the pictures, I'd say some aspects of this boat are pushing that line. That rudder says a lot about the thinking and workmanship that may have gone into the other mods.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 13:12:33

"What the hang" kinda does it for me. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 15:11:52

Ooooohhh, now I get it! He lopped the bottom off the rudder to give it the same draft as the keel! I think I would have opted to modify it to a kick-up rudder. - Randall

That brings up a question I've not thought about before ... for those who convert from swing to wing, what DO you do with the rudder? 'Seems to me that you'd have to shorten it, replace it with a beaching rudder or something, or you'd risk ripping off the rudder when the water got too thin.

What's the scoop?

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 16:13:30

Buzz,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... convert from swing to wing, what DO you do with the rudder? ... have to shorten it, replace it with a beaching rudder or something, or you'd risk ripping off the rudder ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's how it looks to me as well. And rest assured "ripping off the rudder" is definitely an option!

A retractable factory rudder doesn't seem to be available, although I plan to try adapting one from an early C-250 later this year.

I also have preliminary plans for a home built retractable version of the later style C-25 balanced rudder, but so far none have been built, so there's no track record for the design. It's just a very well documented mental exercise at this point.

Dave Laux, a C-25 technical wizard who used to post here, suggested shortening the stock rudder and adding an end plate, sort of like a wing on the bottom of the rudder to match the one on the keel. I've seen that done on other extreme shoal designs, and it's been shown to work in that context. Rudder end plates also have their dissadvantages as well, or you'd see more of them around.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

Members Avatar

202 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 19:36:58

[/quote]
That brings up a question I've not thought about before ... for those who convert from swing to wing, what DO you do with the rudder? 'Seems to me that you'd have to shorten it, replace it with a beaching rudder or something, or you'd risk ripping off the rudder when the water got too thin.

What's the scoop?
[/quote]

Buzz,

As a recent swing to wing convert I have not figured that out yet. When out sailing I am very careful in shallow water, and at dock I remove the rudder.

I am very interested in any ideas or suggestions!

Edited by - cch on 01/30/2004 19:38:00

Steve Kostanich
1st Mate

Members Avatar

88 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 19:50:25

Wow, and all us swing keel guys have enveyed all those who have done the conversion. Guess there really isn't much difference between tearing the bottom out and tearing the transom off, the boat still sinks. I know of a lot of "barely" covered rocks in the San Juan Is. where it could easily happen; wing keel clears the rock, the rudder catches it. Guess I'll just do the up-keep on my swing keel.

Steve Kostanich C-25 1119 sr/sk

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 20:38:35

If ever Orion becomes a winger, you can bet the rudder will be shorter and have an end plate. Both Phil Bolger and Bruce Bingham have used end plates; Bingham even put one on his keel when he moved aboard a Fantasy from a Flicka, and Bolger once wrote that he tried one on an early shoal design and it worked so well he began to use it on all his shoal designs. I am not enough of a hydrodynamicist (whatever that is) to know how much efficiency one can expect. Viewing the rudder in question, my guess is that the addition was experimental, and then the owner moved "on UP" as the song says, before finishing the project. Be nice to know who installed the wing.Fifty years ago, anybody who built a boat had to build a rudder to go with it, and planty of drawings and plans abound that could be followed, not that big a deal to make a rudder. Fair winds, god bless, ron srsk orion SW FL

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2004 : 23:10:57

This boat on E-Bay is a perfect example of why I decided to go shopping for a late-model OEM wing keel Mk. IV instead of doing the swing-to-wing conversion on my '79 Mk. I. Whoever did the swing-to-wing conversion spent at least $2000 for that, if they did all the work themselves, or $3500~$4500 if it was done by a boatyard. Then, the installation of an aftermarket inboard diesel on a boat that was not built that way at the factory...what do you suppose that cost? I would guess that to do it today on my own C-25, with a 9hp Universal or Yanmar, about $5000 for the engine and transmission alone, and at least another $5000 for the labor to modify the boat and install the system. So, I figure the keel and engine mods possibly cost MORE THAN THE ORIGINAL BOAT did when it was built in '79! There's no way the seller is going to recover more than a very small fraction of what those mods cost, especially since the boat doesn't come with a trailer, and the engine is "non-operational" according to the ad!

Even Lowell (The owner of Catalina Direct here in Sacramento) advised me not to do the swing-to-wing conversion on #1205, even though he could have sold me the keel kit and made his usual profit margin on it. The general opinion of most Catalina 25 owners I have talked to is that the swing-to-wing conversion is not economical on boats made before 1986 (Mk. I's and II's), in the sense that the older boats just aren't worth enough at resale for the seller to recover a resonable percentage of the cost. However, if the owner really loved the boat, and had already put a lot of time and effort into it, and was certain he would be keeping it for a long time, then the keel conversion might be worthwhile.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2004 : 09:12:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
 ...There's no way the seller is going to recover more than a very small fraction of what those mods cost...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's pretty much true for all boats!

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2004 : 09:46:41

There are many corollaries to the Peter Principle, one being what Don said. Face it we ain’t gett’n it back! We spend money until we are way beyond the defendable, relative to the boat’s market value. The thing that most of we self-indulging people cannot do, which would make this issue moot, is KEEP OUR BOATS. I know in my heart this is the right boat for me for the rest of my life, whatever investments I make in it are investments in the quality of my life. I just hope I don’t lose my mind and try to buy a different boat. (How many cars have you sold that you wish you had kept?)

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2004 : 14:01:46

I'm a sWINGER who was concerned about the rudder for awhile but rationalized it this way. The swing fully up is two inches more shallow than the wing. Measurements taken aboard Calista show a rudder thirty-six inches into the water, the same depth as the wing. Most boats that I've been aboard hobby-horse so that at any time it's possible for either the keel or the rudder to be several inches deeper that the other. Two things come to mind, one is to keep an eye on your depth meter and avoid the skinny, the other is consider the value of the kick-up rudder. I do the first and would be interested in a kick-up rudder that will stay in the water till a shock short of damaging it will flip it up. I've seen kick-ups that were more a hazard to navigation than the marginal 2" we're talking about, coming out of the water when running into surface vegetation. That won't do for me.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2004 : 16:04:54

I agree with Val's assessment concerning both the hobby horsing of the hull and the kick up rudder.

On my previous boat, a swinger with a kick up rudder, I was once coming down the marina channel when a wave came under my stern lifting it upwards. As the wave made it's way to the bow lifting it, the stern plunged downward forcing the kick up rudder straight down into the lake bottom. The force of the impact bent my upper gudgeon, allowing the shorter pin of the lower pintle to come out. Because of the inherent bouyancy of the rudder, it preceded to throw itself into my spinning prop, forcing me to shut down the motor. Not the best situation when in a narrow channel, but fortunately I drifted into a dike wall and suffered only cosmetic damage.

Another time, I was lifted by a wave (power boat wake) and when the boat came down in the trough, my swing keel slammed straight down into the lake bottom and from the resulting thud and shudder I thought for sure my keel had been shoved up through the hull and was now residing next to the dinette.

As for the kick up rudder kicking up too early, I can't count the number of times I hit seaweed and the rudder jack-knifed even though I had the rudder lines as tight as I could get them. In open water this is no big deal, but it could make things interesting when it happens while manuevering into the slip.

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2004 : 01:27:06

Yeah, very typical for North Florida. When I was shopping for my boat, I saw so many boats that people up there truly thought were perfect. Bunch of country folk with no idea of quality or asthetics.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2004 : 08:15:05

Anybody notice that he claimed it was a fixed keel originally????

Larry - There were one or two that were inboards from the factory. Is there anyway to tell if it wasn't a mod?

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.