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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Braking the trailer

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tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/03/2004 : 16:11:06

The trailer that our boat sits on is something of an ugly duckling. It started life as a powerboat trailer I believe. At some point it was modified to fit our boat. Overall it is not too bad a job but not pretty. Anyway I need to do something about the brakes. At a minimum I need to rebuild the wheel cylinders and replace the pads. Since we wet launch in salt water all the time I am thinking that I should do a complete rebuild from the axles out with new hot dipped galvanized axles, coupler/actuator, and brake lines. I looked at a totally new trailer but the quote was over 7k.

I read on the Catalina 27 site about a guy that installed an electro hydralic system on his boat to deal with braking issues when coming down steep grades. He keeps his boat at Tahoe. Coming down the 7000 foot pass to Sacramento the brakes of a totally hydralic system would drag due to the pressure from the boat pushing forward on the tow vehicle. One of my nightmares is the brakes getting so hot they catch a tire on fire and then I watch my boat burn up (happened to my dad with his RV) We would like to take the boat on long trips that include some major hills like Huntington Lake and Tahoe. Even our coast range passes can be steep like 17 out of Santa Cruz or here at home in San Luis on Cuesta grade. Just last month a boater with a large power boat hit the brakes coming down the grade and jackknifed his suburban into the median divider. The boat flew off the trailer and was smashed to bits.

Has anyone else had issues with the boat pushing the brakes on while coming down grades? I figure I will just gear down and go slow. I read the information on the Champion trailer web site. It sounds like their opinion is that a hyrdralic brake system on all four wheels would be the best solution for braking a boat trailer. What are your opinions and experience?

Todd Hansen
Fiorghra'
San Luis Obispo, CA

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2004 : 17:09:37

Todd,

If you're going to be ramp launching into salt water, and are due for major trailer brake work anyway, you might want to consider a stainless steel disk brake conversion from Champion Trailers.

As for adjusting the trade off on long down grades between the trailer pushing vs. the trailer brakes overheating, see if Champion or another coupler supplier would be willing to install a stronger anti-surge spring in the coupler/master cylinder assembly. This modification would make stopping the trailer in the rain a bit more tricky, but might save you a set of toasted brakes in the mountains. Surely you're not the first customer with this problem. Maybe there's some sort of externally adjustable anti-surge booster spring kit available.

If you go with an entire new undercarriage (which I did), I encourage you to spend the few extra boat bucks for 10,000# capacity (6 lugs, heavier spindles, more spring leaves, maybe bigger disks, 2-5/16" coupler, etc.)

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2004 : 20:24:37

Here's a link for a electric/hydraulic brake actuator... they aren't cheap, but would probably be a real 'skookum' setup. They have some other neat trailer systems.

http://www.tjtrailers.com/store/electric-hydraulic-brake-system.html

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 02/03/2004 : 23:46:37

Leon, why disc brakes over drum? From what I read at the Champion site they have a slight drag which adds heat and they are more complicated. There must be some reason discs are favored. Do they resist brake fade better? Is that an issue with a trailer? Champion highly recommends putting brakes on all four wheels, which makes sense to me. 10k spindles, one axle can hold your whole boat. That would be nice to have if your spare is unavailable. Happened to us once with the Hobie Cat. The truck got two flat tires while driving over Avila beach in the winter when it is covered with driftwood.

Clam, thanks for the link. Very interesting. I can see this is going to be an expensive proposition no matter how I go. I just have to look at as so many months of slip fees I'm not paying and I won't feel too bad. Can see the new laptop I've been planning is not going to happen this year though.

Edited by - tmhansen on 02/04/2004 00:07:54

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 08:05:59

First, I would want my trailer brakes to activate going down a steep grade but I hear what you say, the constant pressure on them might cause overheating.

I don't think thats quite as big as issue as the mind can turn it into... as the brakes actuate, the drag also releases so an apprropriate equilibriam is found. Overheating trailer brakes are more likely the result of a single sticking wheel cylinder that holds a brake actuated and often quite firmly, a very common malady, most often caused by water contaminated brake fluid causing rust within the system.

If all four brakes were working well...the combined drag would hold such little pressure on each that I doubt overheating would be an issue. IMHO, defeating the brakes is not the way to go for safety reasons. Rather, having them in good working conditions would be my choice.

Hitting the brakes and jacknifing means one of three things.

1. That his trailer brakes were not functioning or that they were functioning improperly. Better actuators have a panic preventer in the form of a very small oriface in the fitting coming off the actuator. It disallows a rapid flood of fluid to the wheel cylinders and ensures that the brakes will be applied gradually so that a panic stop doesn't lock up the wheels.

2. As Paul Wallon reported to this forum some time back, some hold the theory that both axles should not brake the same... that one axle should be in a sense a tracking axle if the brakes on the other lock up. I would discuss this with a trailer expert... and possibly undersize the back axle brakes by one size compared to the front axle.
Automobile brakes are designed exactly this way...less braking on the rear to retart the back wheels from locking up. Of course, the shifting weight of an automobile exagerates this problem even more but I think the tracking axle concept makes very good sense and can be accomplished even if having brakes on both axles.

3. The brakes weren't working at all or were defeated and locked out...and it was simply trailer push.

Stainless steel disc brakes make very good sense to me... but they shouldn't take away the focus of the single most important concern for hydraulic boat trailer brakes... water contamination of fluid resulting in rust and improper working brakes. So yes, if I had the money I'd upgrade to stainless disc brakes, smaller on the rear and definately Dot 5 synthetic fluid if staying with hydraulic brakes.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 08:44:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tmhansen
 Since we wet launch in salt water all the time I am thinking that I should do a complete rebuild from the axles out with new hot dipped galvanized axles, coupler/actuator, and brake lines. I looked at a totally new trailer but the quote was over 7k.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Since your regular launch ramp is salt water, I would think that electric brakes are NOT an option for you. I have towed my boat up to Tahoe 4 times and over the Siskiyous twice, and while the brakes did get warm, they didn't get dangerously overheated. And these are drum brakes and only on the front axle. To prevent trailer brake overheating, I go slow, 25 mph in 3rd gear, let the engine (Cummins diesel) do most of the braking, and make sure the wheel cylinders are not corroded before leaving home. The question regarding advantages of Disc over drum brakes: Disc brakes are easier to rinse off with fresh water after a salt water launching, so they don't corrode out as quickly, and they have possibly more stopping power than drums for a given size of trailer.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 08:45:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I would want my trailer brakes to activate going down a steep grade but I hear what you say, the constant pressure on them might cause overheating.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree. If your trailer brakes aren't actuated to some extent on a steep downhill grade, then all the work will have to be done by your tow vehicle's brakes.

Edited by - on

Scott L
1st Mate

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52 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 11:31:32

I hear ya Todd. We tow up to a Mt. Lake here is S. Oregon and coming down the long grade the surge brakes start to smoke. I doubt it is a malfunction since the trailer has less than 1,000 miles on it and is less than a year old. Have not contacted Trailer Rite yet to ask about a fix. I would rather go slow and let the engine do some of the braking and somehow let off on the trailer brakes. I wish they were electric. Coming down a long grade, the weight of the boat pushing on your tow vehicle definately creates enough pressure to activate the surge brakes even if they are working properly. Can't explain the mechanics of it, it's just my reality. Perhaps if I accelerate durring the entire 18 miles downhill, I will not have this problem.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2004 : 14:04:51

I just got off the phone with EZ Loader, they said that You should convert to electric brakes regardless of the type of water you launch in. Their brakes do not need to be disconnected while launching so they can brake you in reverse on the ramp, of course you can drag with them when you start to fishtail to straighten you out. (they have an online store) They said surge are still fine as a mature technology but they are not what a person should do if they are retro-fitting a trailer. This is the same info I got several places last fall when I did my trailer, I still rebuilt my surge system. I wish I had gone to electrics. If the information that someone gets says electrics are not for submersion they are getting information from someone selling old technology.

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

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USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2004 : 00:55:45

Disc. Vs. Drum :
1.Disc is easier to rinse - If I have spoked wheels even better you can rinse from both sides.
2. Disc can be fabricated in Stainless Steel - no rust concerns
3. Braking power should not be an issue with a boat over 5k# and without surge brakes.

Frank when you refer to electric brakes do you mean electric actuators or electric/hydralic as per the link above? I ordered a Champion Catalog. I have not had time to make a phone call during the work day this week to discuss with them ,EZ Loader, or TJ trailer.

I do think that on long steep grades the amount that the brakes drag can be a concern. Huntington is my worst case. In a few miles the grade drops thousands of feet. As a kid living on I-80 near Auburn I used to accompany my dad while he made road service calls to trucks that had cooked their tires or tubes coming down from Truckee. I could take us a while to get the phone call pick up the service truck and drive an hour of so up the grade. Still the rims and tires would be too hot to touch. I do think that they were driving too fast though and used their brakes too much.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2004 : 08:52:33

I am talking about electrically actuated shoes, not the hybrid. EZ said the hybrids are an interesting option for people who want more control over hydralic brakes but that they are an expensive hybrid and usually just converting is cheaper. Remember, if you have any issues with your old brake system you probably have a problem with the entiree system. Once a master cylinder goes bad, the lines are usually contaminated and the slaves are seized, you should replace everything. The hybrid mod would only be appropriate for someone modifying a fully functional surge system. Another issue is whether or not the drums need to be replaced when going to electrics, the answer is maybe. Mark Loyacano here on this site is from my club and when he converted to electrics his stock drums on his TrailRite trailer were fine and did not need to be replaced.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2004 : 09:46:34

Personal opinion here... the best bang for the buck. (What I'm planning)

1) Complete single axle disk brake retofit (actuator, stainless line, stainless disks, hubs, bearings, reverse lockout valve... (the whole kit).. $399. (Champion)

2) Next year, if I feel I need extra braking power... add the second axle discs... $200.

I think with a modicum of maintenance (garden hose, change fluid) this setup will last as long as the trailer (or boat) and if it won't stop you... nothin' will.

If you really want/need the fine control of the electric/hydraulic setup, you could always add one later.

Just the thought of electric components and saltwater gives me the willies.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2004 : 10:20:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClamBeach
 

Just the thought of electric components and saltwater gives me the willies.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I made the same decision when I replaced my existing surge system rather than go electric. But I have been filled with buyer's remorse ever since. The deal on electrical connections is summed up in one word, Vaseline. Launching is a non hydro-pressurized event; the water has no reason to displace anything that is already there, Vaseline behind redundant seals is the void filler that is already there so the water does not get anywhere it shouldn't. For me the big issue is braking on a ramp, I have a two wheel drive vehicle and the thought of any addition source of traction anywhere sounds like a good idea to me.

Edited by - on

Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2004 : 12:00:41

I've been running electric brakes on my trailrite for a year. I really like the additional control.

Lost a hub coming back from Mexico this weekend, ruined a spindle which means replacing 1 axle as a minimum. Gonna rebuild the entire suspension as a result

Just ordered new axles, springs, hubs, brakes from Champion for $840 including shipping.

I'm using the 3500# drop saddle axles, and galvanized or stainless components where available.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2004 : 20:16:36

Doug... tell us about your Mexico cruise.... where did you go? How was it?

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Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2004 : 11:38:46

ClamBeach,
We have been keeping our boat in Puerto Penasco (Rocky Point), Mexico. Closest salt water to Chandler, AZ. The Rocky Point area is pretty poor in comparison to areas further south but it is only a 4 hour drive for us.

No great adventures to report we've never ventured further than about 35 miles from the harbor.

We are planning to take the boat to the San Diego area for awhile as soon as the trailer repairs are complete. After San Diego we may head North up the coast or back to Mexico, maybe San Carlos.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2004 : 13:28:19

On my old Catalina 22 with trailrite trailer I bought the stainless dis brake retro fit kit with galvanized surge mechanism. It worked great.

On my new custom made trailer for my 25 I had them install 6 lug heavy duty stainless discs on all 4 wheels with a Dico 10,000 lb hydraulic surge mechanism. The system works great. The only problem I encountered is that when dipped in salt water, some of the salt settled into the bleed valves and clogged them up. Now that I have that problem taken care of, I'm going to put some silicone grease into the bleed valve openings, and put some plastic caps over that so they don't clog.

Every trailer boater and trailer manufacturer in Florida I have talked to says to stay away from electric brakes. Of course they live in the flatlands.

When I trailer from Knoxville to the Keys I cross a few small mountains, nothing like the Rockies or Sierras, so can't really address the downhill issue.

BUT, if you do go with a hydraulic surge system with discs there are two very important things to do, or you will be screwed.

1. you must install a recirculating solenoid valve on your brake line just in back of the surge mechanism, otherwise the discs will activate when backing up.

2. the surge mechanism pressures must match the disc brake pressures, and the orifice size must be right. discs and drums require two different orifice sizes. Kind of like LP vs Natural gas devices have two different orifice sizes

The folks at Championtrailers.com are really smart and can help you out with these things. At least order a catalog from them.

Hope this helps

I'm not nearly as dumb as I look

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2004 : 00:43:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 
I'm not nearly as dumb as I look
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank - We know you are not dumb, because you had the smarts to go shopping for a 14 year old used Catalina 25 when there are so many shiny new boats out there from Catalina, Hunter, Com-Pac, Rhodes, and others.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2004 : 06:18:10

Thanks Larry

I guesse I are smart

I also recognized early on that Macs and to a smaller extent, Hunters are POS

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