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Autopilot for a 250

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mike rodkey
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/01/2004 : 18:12:36

I would like to hear from anybody that has installed an wheel mounted auto pilot just as the Raymarine ST4000 Plus Cockpit Wheel with MkII Drive Unit on a Catalina 250. I am interested in your comments about performance, ease of installation, power comsumption and any thing else that you might care to pass on.
Thank you.

PS Is there a way to delete a topic from the Testing Forum?

MARodkey

Edited by - mike rodkey on 03/01/2004 18:19:37

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2004 : 21:18:17

You can't delete an original thread... but you can make it say "?" or

I have a ST 4000 Plus wheel pilot but not the MK II drive unit (don't think anyhow). It is an Autohelm, now Raytheon Marine I think.

Here is the deal... It is a great unit but must have a helm that is within its ability limits. It would struggle (jump teeth on the belt) at times with the 2nd generation beaching rudder until the rudder was modified with some balance.

It doesn't like the 3rd generation short rudder... as the rudder goes into varying degrees of attack attitude as the rudder moves toward stall. When the puff stops that caused the high attack angle, the boat then lurches to the rudder position and then the helm reacts and usually causes a two cylce oscilation and a course that has spectators thinking the crew is drunk.

Which rudder do you have?

I've had mine seven years now and outside of an infant mortality of the first unit... it has worked flawlessly when the rudder was cooperative. The 2nd generation beaching rudder with some balance, works fantastic with it. I assume the 3rd generation long (wing keel version) would work great.

Which steering cables do you have? The system worked much better this last year after converting to the open cables as I previously had a lot of play and considerable drag in steering system.

Power consumption I think is reasonable. I have two 6 volt golf cart batteries and one group 24 12v and last summer made a 100 mile crossing of Lake Huron completely under auto pilot and sail in winds of 10-12 mph. We departed about 11:30 am and hence spend the whole of the night sailing. The auto pilot steered the whole distance.

We arrived across the next morning about 8 am. The vhf, gps, sounder was on the whole time as well as quite a bit of CD time on the stereo and of course the nav lights during the night.

A 32 watt solar panel gave some charging.

I've cruised with this combination now for six years and have never run short of power, and have never had to charge at a marina. Between the Honda charging circuit and the solar panel, the batteries do fine. Last summer we cruised 24 days and I don't skimp on power and feel free to use the pilot whenever its desired.

The auto pilot will not handle a strong quartering sea and wind but this is fairly typical of autopilots. They can't do the anticipatory helming that is needed for such a seaway.

Here is my mod page for the auto pilot

[url="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/pilot.html"]Wheel Pilot[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 03/01/2004 21:26:54

mday
Navigator

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197 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 01:15:10

Mike,

I have a ST4000+ unit installed on a C250 WB -- it's about 2 years old at this point. I installed it myself and Arlyn was a big help figuring out some details of installing it. I primarily use it to steer when single handing. It's been invaluable taking the helm when raising and lowering sails.

I recently installed a 3rd generation short rudder, and I fully agree with Arlyn's comments that the autohelm doesn't track well at all with this rudder. It's slightly better into the wind than downwind, but downwind it looses control exactly as Arlyn described. Fortunately, I don't do much long distance sailing that depends on the autohelm, and I've kept the 3rd generation rudder for it's much better performance into the wind than my old (unbalanced) 2nd generation rudder. I also have the old single cable push/pull system on the wheel, which was a struggle with the unbalanced 2nd generation rudder.

Installation wasn't too bad if you're willing to tackle cutting a big hole for the control unit and running wiring around. I mounted the control on the starboard side, forward in the cockpit on the cabin wall where a ST60 depth guage/knotmeter was also mounted. I also cut an access panel on the opposite side (inside the cabin) and covered it with a piece of whiteboard. This made the wiring access much easier. I wired the unit into the same DC breaker as my knotmeter, and haven't had any problems. I was originally concerned I may need to add a separate breaker, but I couldn't see expanding the breaker box for the autohelm. So far, this has worked fine.

I ran the wiring back through the hollow space over the aft berth and around the rear partition up through the pedestal. Raymarine didn't provide enough wire on the unit for this run, so I had to splice in maybe 5-10 feet more. If you have an instrument pod on a pedestal guard, that would be the ideal location and eliminate the need for sawing fiberglass - I don't have anything like that. I mounted the compass on the front of the compartment under the bottom step, and it seems to work OK there -- I'm not sure if that was an optimal location, though, because it is fairly near to ballast valve and the ceterboard cables. I haven't noticed huge tracking errors, but like I said, I'm not doing any long distance sailing with the autohelm engaged.

Max

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 08:43:49

Max, It was interesting to note agreement that the autohelm doesn't like the 3rd short. I had some sense that Gerry Douglas was a little perjorative about my expectations and that my critical view was a bit eccentric.

My simple answer to that is yes, I am demanding of a good helm.... and have found it in the combination of a 2nd beaching rudder with a modified rudder head, and the conversion away from Edson steering cables.

I don't think its eccentric to buy an autohelm that is sized to easily handle a 25 foot boat and expect it to perform. Then again, Practical Sailor says that the 250 is only adequate for an overnight and not up to cruising. So, maybe I'm not supposed to cruise with a 250? The 24 days and 750 miles of cruising last summer on the Great Lakes may have been eccentric.

There is peace however in knowing that many other boats in this same size range and smaller including Mac 25s, Edel 540s, Precision 23s, and a host of others do the same thing, so I'm thinking that the big boys are having a little emotional moment justifying there boating expense when they see it done on much smaller boats. Practical sailor is stroking the ego of its big boat clients.

I'm not suggesting that small boats are as seaworthy as larger boats... hence my critical view of handling on the c250, but with effort, small boats can be made into good coastal cruisers. My c250 helm for example has been transformed from dismal to excellent with the autohelm fully able to funtion with it and handle most sea conditions. When those kind of things are worked out on small boats, then the small boat is fully able to coastal cruise, after all, The Travelers did it in open canoes. Practical Sailor is speaking to a group who have become a bit on the whimpy side.

I am not however suggesting that all big boat sailors have an attitude about small boats... I know this not to be true. I've had several big boat owners stroll over for a look, ask where we've been cruising, and comment that the plan is a good one and they respect what small boats are capable of.

Is Catalina wrong for grouping the 250 in the Bay Series?... No, because for the most part it fits. The term is not a shackle however.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 03/08/2004 19:43:39

mday
Navigator

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197 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 18:05:51

Arlyn,

I had meant to write you on my rudder experience -- since you did ask for a report. Sorry about that -- I just didn't get to it yet and this post prompted me to go ahead and comment.

I was disappointed to have the autohelm functionality reduced by the new rudder. I didn't try fooling around with the gain settings on the autohelm, but I suspect you may have and it didn't help.

All I can say is my 2nd generation rudder is getting refinished, and I'll probably make your mods and may install your open cable system. Please keep the kit available! You've done some admirable work improving the C250. Certainly those "eccentricities" are totally unfounded. I've been on many cuises on larger boats that don't offer any more comfort and seaworthiness than the C250. There's no excuse not to make it handle as well as possible, even if you're not cruising for a week or more. As we all know, the C250 has big advantages in it's trailerability and shallow draft that allow it to go where most of the "bigger boats" can't. Why shouldn't you want to cruise about for a while once you get out on your favorite sailing area?

Thanks again for all your efforts to make the C250 better for us all.

Max

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2004 : 19:42:40

I didn't try different gain settings either, thinking different settings couldn't possibly solve the problem created by a rudder which might be very far over in a great angle of attack trying to hold the boat and then suddenly the wind slacken and the helm quickly steering wildly to leeward. Thats asking more from an autopilot than they are designed to give.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.