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Keel Truck Rebuild

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pbarr
1st Mate

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USA
54 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/02/2004 : 01:12:35

It's happened. Last season while sailing alone several miles out, I misread my chart, rode up on a reef in heavy winds and 4ft waves, and consider myself lucky not to have lost the boat or worse. Fortunately I was able to get the keel up and the boat heeled over enough to ride off. Phew.

I knew I had a to do a repair but until reading all the posts here I did not realize that the tear in the fiberglass panel of the bench was likely caused by the keel getting banged against the aft portion of of the keel truck. We sailed like that for the remainer of the season. I did notice that with the keel was down the whole area flexed if the keel got bumped. Fortunately there was no leaking(dumb luck). At least nothing more than slight seepage.

The boat is up on the trailer now. Armed with a new understanding of how the hull/trunk structure works I'm going to go look at it again tomorrow. I'm trying to decide whether to attempt the repair myself or job it out. I'm very handy mechanically but have never fiberglassed. If I do try, will I have to cut away a huge area ala' Ken Cave http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/dragn2.html? I have a 78 cat25 swing keel with the 'L' shaped cabin setup.

Also, anyone know how I can get drawings referenced in an archived posting sent to me? They're from >>
Keel Trunk reinforcement - Posted - 03/19/2002 : 22:36:01 ... scanned copies of the drawings and literature ...I received the swing keel trunk reinforcement info package a couple of days ago from Doug Lewis, and have scanned them... I scanned them at 300dpi, and the resulting four ".GIF" ... Leon Sisson ...

Your advice and experience are appreciated. Phil

pbarr@umich.edu

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2004 : 08:11:44

You might want to at least consider doing the swing-to-wing conversion. Most owners who have had the job done in a yard report it cost $3500 to $4000 for the whole project, which is possibly only a little more than a repair of your keel trunk would cost.
As you anticipated in your post, a repair will almost certainly require cutting out a big area of the settee paneling ro get at the keel trunk. Replacing the paneling skilfully enough that the repair isn't visible is a job for a professional fiberglass repair shop, and that's where you will take a big hit in the wallet. If you read a selection of postings on this forum from swing-to-wing conversion owners, most say that the conversion was price competitive with a professional repair of a damaged swing keel trunk. Either way, you will have to do something before you launch the boat again; if there is visible flexing of the keel trunk, the structure is damagaed and you run the risk of having the keel tear completely off if it isn't fixed or replaced.

Edited by - lcharlot on 03/02/2004 08:19:01

pbarr
1st Mate

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USA
54 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2004 : 08:45:16

I hadn't thought about a wing keel. The swing is so nice as the great lake water levels continue to go down. Also I love camping out in shallow shoreline estuaries.

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2004 : 09:27:17

Phil,
I'm a bit confused... as usual.

Is the aft end of the keel trunk near the winch cable where the damage is or is it in the pivot pin area? Or both?

Regarding the scanned images, email Leon directly to see if he still has a copy.http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display& id=234

Sound fiberglass repairs require at least a 7 to 1 cut back, so if the glass at the damaged area is an inch deep you will need to grind a taper back 7 inches around the edges and then rebuilt with new glass and resin. It isn't difficult to do but it is messy and you must follow the direction of whatever product you choose, i.e. West, System 3.

If you can do the repair yourself it won't be terribly expensive but if you need to hire it done, I would really suggest that you strongly consider the wing conversion. The draft with the wing is very close to the swing raised, maybe an inch or two lower.(I think, hopefully someone will chime in with the numbers)

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2004 : 10:55:04

According to the C25 brochure posted on the website, the draft of the wing keel is 2 feet, 10 inches. The original brochure (pre-1988) is too fuzzy and I can't make out the draft on the raised swing keel to make a comparison.

We had a new wing keel put on Adventurous just recently, because of keel trunk damage. The possible repair bill was quoted at around $3,000, but would be sure until they really got into the job to see how much damage there really was. We elected to go with the wing option because we were planning on doing it anyway, just not so soon after we bought the boat. The link below is the page from the "newer" C25 brochure to give you specs.

http://www.catalina25-250.org/manbro/pictures/bro88-4.jpg

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2004 : 13:12:30

I think the raised swing keel is 2' 8" draft.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2004 : 14:08:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pbarr
 ...Last season while sailing alone several miles out, I misread my chart, rode up on a reef in heavy winds and 4ft waves...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Phil,

Where was the reef?...Colchester?

One time last summer while singlehanding, I wasn't paying attention and got a little too close to Pointe Mouillee when I started feeling a gentle tug from the soft muddy bottom at which point I immediately spun around and headed back to more open water. Nothing happened, but I was really sweatin' for a few minutes!

BTW...I don't know if you met them last year, but Tom and Dawn will have their C25, Alibi, slipped next to me this coming season.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2004 : 14:35:19

Phil,

I got your e-mail, and will dig around for the swing keel trunk info.

I wouldn't worry about restoring the hull liner (interior furniture) to original cosmetic perfection. There are easier ways to avoid it looking like it was butchered. What would Martha Steward do? Restoring the needed strength in the liner is easy. If large sections have to be cut out and glassed back in, there are a few simple tricks to getting them aligned again so that they don't look like a badly healed broken bone.

Could you please provide us with more specific details of the damage to your swing keel system? As others have mentioned, fiberglass repair materials are very inexpensive, it's the labor that's costly. As for tools, the only big ticket items I can think of are a 4" to 5" right angle grinder, and a serious power sander, like a 7" right angle multi-speed disk (the kind that would rip your arms off before it would stall

). If you need model numbers or specs, let us know. The rest of the tools are so inexpensive that most of them are considered disposable. Restoring hull integrity below the waterline may not be very appealing as a starter project, but it's not rocket science either, it's just messy. The WEST epoxy folks have published lots of helpful information from beginner to expert level. I've done a lot of work to my keel and trunk, and the results have been well tested without problems.

On the other hand, I don't foresee many ways to cut costs on a wing keel conversion. I'm also very skeptical about the windward performance of a wing. I have yet to hear of one out pointing a swing keel to the windward mark. When a swing keel runs aground, relief is just a few crank turns away. When a wing keel runs aground -- well you're aground, and with a lot of surface area in contact with the bottom.

Rest assured that whatever you decide to do, there will be encouragement and expert advice available here to talk you through it.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

GeorgeB
1st Mate

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90 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2004 : 12:59:02

Phil,
Until you have done a through examination of the extent of damage to the Keel trunk, I'm not sure that I would proceed with a keel conversion. Depending on the extent of damage and delamination of the existing structure, you may be faced with doing a fix and then a conversion. I'm with Leon, doing your own glass work is not out of the realm of possibility.

Edited by - on

pbarr
1st Mate

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USA
54 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2004 : 15:10:15

"Is the aft end of the keel trunk near the winch cable where the damage is or is it in the pivot pin area? Or both?"

I believe that the damage is limited to the pivot pin area and that the damaged portion is to the flat portion that acts as a stop when the keel is tin the full down position. The impact actually tore the wall of the settee in front of it. I'm thinking that the repair will be made from inside the boat and am going to try to tackle it myself over the next two weekends. If I can borrow a camera I'll try to post a photo of what I fine.

I'll be going out to the boat in the next day or so armed with lots more infomation. I'll let you know.

Thanks for all the advise and support so far.

Edited by - on

pbarr
1st Mate

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USA
54 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2004 : 22:58:31

Hmmm. We're in a bit of a quandry. Should be leave it alone or ...

We went out to the boat today and removed a 4x6 inch piece of the front of the settee to expose the aft flat protion of the truck. We were suprised that everything seemed solid and in good order.

Is it possible that the trunk absorbed a single strong hit from the keel without permanent damamge? The trunk obviously moved enough to crack the front surface of the settee. Actually it wouldn't of had to move much since the aft portion of the trunk seemed to butt right up against part of the fibergalss panel of the settee that we removed.

We can see the port side of the truck and that looks ok. We've exposed part of the aft portion and that seems intact. Should we keep opening up around the corner or just wait and see?

I realize that I'm not being very clear. Pictures would be nice. We're leaning towards opening up an inspection panel to the starboard side of the trunk and waiting till we get the boat in the water to see if we can spot any movement.

Anyone have an idea how to non-destructively test the integrity of the keel trunk?

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 00:55:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The draft with the wing is very close to the swing raised, maybe an inch or two lower.(I think, hopefully someone will chime in with the numbers)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We recently finshed our swing to wing conversion. I feel the draft difference is a bit hard to determine. As measured on the trailer, the difference is about 1 3/4" to 2" difference between raised swing and wing. Once the boat is in the water and loaded (outboard, gear, passengers, etc?) it is really hard to tell. Still I feel you can assume close to a 2" diffence in draft from a raised swing to a wing keel.
I am really enjoying not having to raise and lower the keel. That was a constant issue in our shallow water.

Edited by - on

cch
Navigator

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202 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 01:07:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I'm also very skeptical about the windward performance of a wing. I have yet to hear of one out pointing a swing keel to the windward mark. Leon Sisson
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Leon,

Still a bit early to tell but I think you may be right here. I am working on my rigging and rudder but I feel she may never point quite as high with the wing as she did with the swing. I really like the feel of the boat in all other respects.

By the way, I installed my anchor roller just as you suggested and it works great! I love it! I would still be fighting the rub rail without your ideas.

Thanks,

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 09:19:03

Phil,

In my opinion, and probably not one that you want to hear, you need to drop the swing keel completely put of the boat.

The keel trunk pivot area should be a rigid assembly and I doubt that you would be able to see anything less than catestrophic damage to the area, ala Ken Cave. While it can move some under stress, I think that the key is that you have observed additional flexing and had some water leaking in.

If you remove the keel you will be able to completely inspect the outside / underwater portions of the trunk where any damage will be much easier to observe. You can use the threaded rod technique to lower the keel. If you get rods long enough and can get the boat high enough, you can leave it attached and not drop it all the way out. This will allow you to also inspect the brackets and pin as well as replacing the four bolts. Go ahead and replace the cable and ball and update the bracket too if you haven't already.

You might need to sand or scrape bottom paint to get to clean gelcoat and really inspect the area but that isn't to hard in a small area like this. Be sure to inspect the area of impact and the opposite edge on the bow side. Just imagine tilting a box off of a flat surface. Where the box lifts off the surface is where you should llok for damage.

If you had any water seeping in from this area that is evidence enough that the damage exists. You must find and repair it or it will get worse.

Edited by - on

pbarr
1st Mate

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USA
54 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 12:11:59

Clif,

We replaced the pivot pin, bolts, cable and ball at the beginning of last season so no worries there. The water probabably is not coming in from the trunk. We sailed for over a month last season after the damage without more bidge water than usual (we've got lots of aboveboard leak points that we're gradually working through).

I'm still worried about the flexing I saw when the keel would bump something. Your advice about inspecting the side 'where the box lifts' is a good way to think about it. Do you think reinforcing that area from the inside makes any sense?

Phil

Edited by - on

svmoxie
Past Commodore

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USA
331 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2004 : 14:56:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm still worried about the flexing I saw when the keel would bump something. Your advice about inspecting the side 'where the box lifts' is a good way to think about it. Do you think reinforcing that area from the inside makes any sense?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've never watched that area of my boat when sailing, much less when dragging the bottom... I'm usually grabbing for the tiller!

If you touch bottom the keel should respond by raising which wouldn't flex the trunk, but if it drops to the stops that sure could. But I would think that if it flexed much at all it would crack...

Man Phil, I just don't know. I would do a very through inspection and get up in the trunk from below with a flashlight and a pick to see if you can find a problem. If not, I would say no; I can't imagine that you would do any real benefit laying more glass over the trunk without a real "target" to repair. Not only that but you would need to open up the liner quite a bit to expose enough of the hull to do any good.

In my opinion, this inspection and any repair most likely needs to be done from outside the hull. Any damage that you would fix inside would have been obvious.

Shoot for all I know, mine flexes too. You can bet I will be looking at it closely for comparision. Besides now I have an excuse when I hit the bottom... "No really, I was looking for flex in my keel trunk. Really!"

Edited by - on

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