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Cockpit Sole Rebuild Suggestions?

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cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/09/2004 : 22:21:20

Reading the thread on the backing under the combings being rotted makes me think about how to repair what I suspect is the backing for the cockpit sole being rotten on Confetti.....(the sole is springy and "feels" not real solid any more). No way to get to it directly like thru an access hole like for the underside of the combings, since the deck liner over the quarter berth has no openings...

I am pondering cutting out the sole from above, along the outline of the antiskid, pulling out the sole and replacing the plywood (I'm assuming it is/was plywood bonded to it), and resetting the sole, and filling and painting the saw kerf.

The alternative is to do the same thing from the quarterberth, cutting out the "ceiling" of the quarter berth to expose the backing of the cockpit sole... This approach at least would have the least cosmetic "risk" of leaving ugly scars...... I would simply have to work laying on my back and have stuff fall into my eyes..... (oh joy)

Anyone ever have to do repairs on their cockpit sole? If yes, any suggestions???? (besides treading lightly on the cockpit sole and not worrying about it???) <grin>

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck Shaw
Confetti
Cat 25, hull#1
1976 FK/TR

Edited by - on

John V.
Admiral

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USA
559 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 23:11:42

Hi Chuck,

I have done this project on Nin Bimash II. My problem was a spongy squishy cockpit sole. There was a considerable amount of water between the layers. I drilled several holes to find out what condition the core was in. It did not appear to be rotted so I proceded to cut out the fiberglass outer layer cockpit side. ( I would not attempt this from the inside) I used a dremel cutting wheel with the shop vac right there to pick up all the dust. otherwise you'll be itching for weeks. I cut right along the non skid line with a slight bevel inwards so the re- attachment would be tight. When removed the core was soaked, so I drilled a number of holes in the plywood without penetrating the lower layer. Luck was with me as we had about ten days of hot sunny weather and using the wet vac I was able to draw out most of the water and the sun did the rest. While things were drying out, I crafted a clamp of reenforced plywood which would completely cover the cockpit floor. With the core dryed out I set up the clamp with 20 1/4 in carriage bolts drilled clear through to the space under the cockpit. when we were ready we mixed a lot of west epoxy and soaked the core with all the bolts already started from the inside no epoxy was going into the inside. we laid down the glass outer floor letting the epoxy ooze out. we laid down a layer of black polypropylene to prevent the plywood clamp from bonding to the floor. then with the clamp in place my buddy pounded the bolts up through the floor as I dropped in the washers and spun down the nuts. before the epoxy set we had the bolts tightened down and gave the whole mess 24 hours to set up. To remove the bolts we heated each one with a blowtorch and pounded them through. we cleaned up and sanded out all the burrs and ridges, mixed a thickened batch of west to fill the holes then sanded out those bumps and laid in another layer of epoxy and glass cloth to form a new cockpit floor. Once finished and sanded the new floor was not as attractive as the old floor so we built a set of white oak floor boards. the whole thing looks great and the cockpit floor is very solid. be brave and dig in. a strong cockpt floor is an integral part of the aft structure of your boat and this needs to be taken care of. if you have any questions as you look into the project keep this thread open.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2004 : 23:40:19

Chuck,

I'd say you've got it figured out as well as I would without having done the job before. John V has done a fine job of describing how to attack the problem from above. Here's how I would approach it from the bottom.

I'd follow about the same general procedure I described in the coaming core repair. By the way, I replaced the curved foredeck plywood core ahead of the anchor locker hatch using the method described here. (Except there was no cosmetic bottom skin to reuse. I laminated the bottom of each thin layer of plywood with fiberglass cloth before installing it.) Obvious differences include cutting neatly all the way around the edges of the quarterberth "ceiling", installing the pre-coated plywood all in one sheet, and reinstalling the fiberglass skin.

I use a small hydraulic bottle jack to push core into place from below. Be sure to put a large plywood scrap under the jack, and maybe a temporary 2x4 compression post wedged in the locker below the jack. That quarterberth shelf isn't too sturdy. Jack slowly, to give the slightly thickened epoxy time to distribute evenly.

When you go to install the plywood with thickened epoxy, it might be helpful to drill a grid of 1/8" to 1/4" holes in the plywood like pegboard, but maybe on 2" centers. This will reduce the chance of accidently including air pockets. When you jack the plywood into position, use a smaller piece of 3/4" plywood with little spacer blocks attached to the top of each corner so as to spread the jack pressure (and hence the epoxy) evenly. A layer of bubble wrap might work too. Epoxy should ooz out of almost all the vent holes. If not, you get to choose between: (1.) Pulling it back apart and starting over with more goo. (Been there, done that.) (2.) Injecting epoxy into the few holes that didn't ooz using a plastic syringe. (3.) Pressing and/or pounding around the empty holes to encourage cooperation and relieve your frustration. (4.) Pretending you didn't see that, and continuing on. If only a small number of widely scattered holes didn't ooz, I'd move on. A large group of adjacent dry holes is a sure sign of a void, so inject more goo starting from the edge of the group and working towards the center. More than 50% dry holes means you had better be prying that panel back off in a hurry, quickly scraping away as much epoxy as possible, throwing the scrapings away, and starting over with lots more glue this time! (Goggles, gloves, disposable overalls, a drop cloth, and slow hardener would be real good ideas.

)

Wait until the epoxy sets to the consistancy of soft cheese. Remove the jack, etc. and use a putty knife and/or wood chisel to clean up the squeezed out excess glue. If you wait even a few minutes past the semi-stiff stage of cure, clean up gets much harder to do. If the epoxy is still just soft enough to slightly stick to the tools and smear, that's the time to start scraping like a mad man. It the tools get too messy, wipe them with acetone.

Reapplying the old fiberglass skin works about the same, but I'd be tempted to drill a 3" grid of 3/32" or 1/8" holes, and go for the bubble wrap and a full size scrap of 3/4" plywood on top of the smaller one. The cockpit to plywood bond has to be strong and void free. This one just has to hold the headliner up. If it bonds well enough to be structural too, that's a bonus.

As soon as you finish scraping worms this time, wipe off the smeared epoxy with acetone and paper towels.

Don't put any weight in the cockpit, or move the boat (if on the hard), for a week.

Sand down, fill, and shape the cutline. Paint it, vinyl tape it, or ignore it.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Raskal
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2004 : 01:20:33

Easy now, let's remember that Chuck owns the sacred Hull #1. It would be best to do whatever leaves the sole most intact with its original appearance. Maybe Catalina would be willing to offer some free assistance on fixing this knowing how important this particular boat is--for them, for us, and of course for Chuck...

Rich K.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2004 : 09:29:52

There's a former Catalina employee turned freelance service technician and to say he's a gifted craftsman is an understatement. I plan on contacting him in the near future to discuss his thoughts on this repair - which I will share in this thread. Naturally, it would be great if we could get Catalina's slant on this posted here as well. Maybe we could then induct this thread into the C25/250 Tech Tips Hall of Fame

.
Rich and Leon, this is not to at all discount what you've said above, but more to adjunct it.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2004 : 17:29:59

GREAT suggestions guys!!! When I end up doing a major project like this I end up mentally doing it several times before committing to cutting or drilling! And the older I get the better I like going to school on other people's experiences!!!

John, did the plywood under the cockpit sole fill the entire volume between the headliner in the quarterberth and the cockpit sole, or was there room between the bottom of the plywood and the headliner? (sounds like it pretty much fills the whole volume)...

I am leaning towards doing the work from below so I minimize the cosmetic damage to the exterior, so the idea of the "vent" holes in the backing was pretty clever! However, I saw a boat with a nice teak cockpit grating and had thought to build something like that to coverup any poor workmanship on my part if I went in from above. Good to know that someone has already done this!

Steve, be sure and let us know what you find out from the craftsman you mentioned.....

No matter which path I choose, I will photo document how I do it and post the results (which I hope will be a "I suggest this approach" rather than a "Do NOT do what I did!!!" :-)

Several years ago I replaced the backing under the combings and under all the dock line cleats using large metal backing plates rather than washers when the water dropped 8 feet here in Clear Lake and Confetti hung from her docklines till the washers pulled through the original plywood backing. Now the cleats are tied through a stainless outside backing plate, lots of epoxy putty inside the glass to fill the uneven inside surface, 3/4" plywood backing soaked in West Epoxy, and an inside stainless backing plate with the bolts holding the cleat on pulling all that together....The inside metal backing plates provide a lot of area over the simple washers that were originally there.....

Good thread! Thanks again for sharing ideas!

Chuck

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 11:52:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw
 . . . Steve, be sure and let us know what you find out from the craftsman you mentioned . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As anticipated, my source recommends going at it from above - cutting just above the nonskid - remove and replace the core. Of course he's a wee bit more skilled than all of us - combined

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 19:31:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ

As anticipated, my source recommends going at it from above - cutting just above the nonskid - remove and replace the core. Of course he's a wee bit more skilled than all of us - combined

!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the input! Shucks..... I am a bit leery of doing it from above due to concerns over the cosmetic damage I would inflict and not be able to fix.

I suspect I will go at it from the bottom and simply get a nice coating of epoxy all over my shiny head (might be an improvement?)..

Gotta wait till its a wee bit warmer and more settled though... That also gives me more time to work up the courage to start this.....

Thanks again for all the inputs!!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2004 : 00:50:05

These have been very informative postings about how to deal with the problem, but does anyone have any idea what caused it in the first place? It sounds like at least two of you have encountered this, so what might the rest of us look for, in order to prevent it?

Edited by - on

dhunt
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2004 : 08:25:11

I just want to add a vote to go with the experts and repair from the top . . . Solitaire does not have the problem, but if she ever does I will definately work it from the top.

Reasons? . . .

1. any cosmetic damage is easily hidden under some kind of wood cockpit sole insert (Solitaire's PO installed a teak grid that uses two beautiful sections that exactly fit the cockpit floor)
2. the work will be MUCH easier to do well
3. NO RISK associated with working materials in a confined space (open air for working with resins and solvents)

Good luck on the project (luck in this context is really just careful planning and patient implementation)

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/29/2004 : 09:42:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lee Panza
 . . . does anyone have any idea what caused it in the first place? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The models that have scuppers in the transom have metal collars (bronze?) around the openings. We suspect that water migrates behind the collars, then to the cockpit sole.

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2004 : 01:32:26

Have a look at this site http://www.rotdoctor.com/

Edited by - Douglas on 03/30/2004 01:34:26

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