Association Forum - Charging System

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Charging System - too many choices!

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

tmhansen
Captain

Member Avatar

USA
397 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/23/2004 : 00:00:52

I need to completely redo the electrical system on my boat. The current system has been monkeyed around with so that there is no over current protection at all, most things are directly to the battery. The water pump did have an inline fuse but the pump was not mounted and was lying in the bilge. Anyway I need some help to figure this all out. I have books by Charlie Wing and Nigel Calder and the West Catalog but some times you can have too much information but not the right information. I thought I would break this down into chunks. Chunk number one, battery charging.

I already have one nearly dead battery (deep cycle wet)in my garage from the automotive type charger used previously. Calder and WM recommend equalization charging of wet batteries from time to time. I remember reading in last year's WM catalog about reviving a supposedly dead battery through this process. Wing discusses it but says that it is not for maintainence free batteries. Only the Xantrex Truecharge 20+ (or larger) has this 4 stage charging ability. It's $320 at WM and $285 at Defender. Thats a lot of boat units for a battery charger when there are other units that have three stage charging for half that. I have Leon's diagram from his boat and it appears that he may have the Truecharge 20+ with remote panel. Do I really need a 4 stage charger?

If I am going to install a battery combiner for charging by solar and alternator do I need a charger that has multiple leads?

I trust the combined wisdom of this group can help me sort this out and maybe save me from wasting my discretionary income.

Todd Hansen
Fiorghra'
San Luis Obispo, CA

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 00:25:15

Look, I charge my 2, 75 amp hour gell cells about once every 2 weeks using a 3 amp Guest marine 2 stage charger. Cost $50 at West Marine. Equalizing batteries is worth it on big cruising boats with extensive house banks of expensive batteries. $100 will buy you two brand new wet cells and another $50 gets you the charger. The DC load on our boats is not that extensive, especially when day sailing.

My charger has only 1 set of leads. It's wired into a small panel thats connected to the 3 way battery switch so that whatever battery is selected is getting charged. In practice I always have the switch on BOTH or OFF. Battery recharge time is less if you draw 2 batteries down to 90% rather than one down to 80%.

The solar panel (2, 11 watt flexible panels) are simply wired into the DC system. You can use a cigarette lighter plug or any other connector. I use those waterproof ones. If the battery switch is to BOTH they will both be charged, otherwise select 1 or 2. I also have a voltage regulator set to 14.3 volts (not needed with wet cells).

My engine charging system (6 amp on an 8 HP Honda) is also wired the same way. In fact, I made a small panel with a DC voltmeter and a 3 way switch. I can select engine, solar, or battery charger (or off). This only has to be able to tolerate 6 amps max so a simple low power rotary switch will do. No reason why you couldn't wire both the solar and engine to charge at once (I didn't though). In fact, I don't have the engine hooked up except for my long distance sumer cruise. I try to only use the engine 5 minutes per day and that isn't worth running the wires.

My advice - keep it simple.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 09:26:41

IMHO disclaimer.

I'm in agreement with Jim.. if you had a thousand dollars worth of batteries that you were really depending on for power when cruising 1000 miles from nowhere, the bucks-up systems would be worth every penny. For 'local' cruising with a couple $75 dollar batteries... IMHO not worth it, I'd invest the money elsewhere.

I use a $25 hard-mounted marine 'smart-maintenance' charger from Kragen that I got for $25. For my needs, works fine... but your mileage may vary ;>)

Single charger leads should work... you could wire them in like Jim using the A-B switch to direct the charge, solder in a pigtail to go to both batteries or wire to a bus bar.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 11:19:27

I too, have a simple relatively inexpensive battery/charger setup that consists of an Exide deep cycle from Sam's club ($50.00) hooked to an inexpensive Sear's automotive onboard fully automatic multi-stage charger.

Edited by - dlucier on 03/23/2004 11:49:34

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 11:58:46

Todd,

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I have books by Charlie Wing and Nigel Calder and the West Catalog<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There's also a good boat electrics book by Don Casey. Many of the West Advisors are available online at the West Marine website. For preplanned purchases, especially large ones, consider Defender Industries.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I thought I would break this down into chunks. Chunk number one, battery charging.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's how I designed and built my electrical system in steps, and it worked for me.

(1.) Get started: Basic Shore power, 120vac charging, high current distribution, physical layout planning.

(2.) Add daysailing capability: Safety, legal requirements, a bilge pump, hand-held VHF, depth finder, nav. lights, a solar panel, maybe a battery combiner.

(3.) Meet additional overnight livability requirements. Some cabin lights, compass, a cigarette lighter outlet, a battery combiner for sure, wire in engine alternator if so equipped.

(4.) Add vacation cruise capability, more creature comforts. All cabin lights, fans, stereo, masthead VHF, GPS, pressure water, autopilot, more cigarette lighter outlets, maybe another bilge pump, more solar panel capacity, DC-to-DC charger(s) for flashlight cells, cordless tools, etc.

Try to have at least a vague long range master plan in mind, and try to make each addition move towards with that goal. Pick a target quality & reliability level, and stick to it. (Fuses or circuit breakers? Crimped connectors or soldered? Marine grade wire or cheap automotive crap? Camping trailer parts or marine grade?)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Calder and WM recommend equalization charging of wet batteries from time to time. I remember reading in last year's WM catalog about reviving a supposedly dead battery through this process. Wing discusses it but says that it is not for maintainence free batteries. Only the Xantrex Truecharge 20+ (or larger) has this 4 stage charging ability. ... I have Leon's diagram from his boat and it appears that he may have the Truecharge 20+ with remote panel. Do I really need a 4 stage charger?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Don't attempt to equalize a battery you can't add electrolyte to. As JimB said, you have the option of replacing your batteries more often. Yes, I have the Truecharge 20+ with remote panel & temp. sense. The main reasons I got it were to slam a charge to the batteries quickly without damaging them, to prolong their life, and to not have to worry about battery charger performance again anytime soon. It's not for everyone.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If I am going to install a battery combiner for charging by solar and alternator do I need a charger that has multiple leads?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Battery combiners solve a lot of problems, and can actually automate and simplify your charging system. Left in auto mode, they save remembering to flip switches to manage your charging. You are correct that battery combiners may make a multibank shor power charger redundant.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I trust the combined wisdom of this group can help me sort this out and maybe save me from wasting my discretionary income.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You can also trust us to come up with more than one well reasoned but conflicting solution to even the simplest problem. And electrical system design isn't the simplest problem.

A lot depends on your individual situation.

I have found that for weekend daysailing, and docking in a sunny spot, a pair of 11W solar panels about meets my routine charging needs. The mulit-stage shore power charger is more for meeting meeting unusual power needs. That may seem like extravigant overkill, but if you're on a trip, and house bank voltage is getting lower every day you check it, you need to have some method of making a large deposit in your energy account. A robust shore power charger gives you several options: (1.) Quickly recharging your house bank at home after a short cruise. (2.) Plugging in at a marina while you shower, do laundry, shop, eat out, etc. (3.) Making optimum use of a small portable generator which may not have eleborate 12V charging capability on its own.

Gotta run, let me know if you have more questions....

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2004 : 16:14:13

Hey Todd if you need a quick charge while on your trip to Don Pedro this summer, just visit my slip, #24, and plug into the shore power there.

Edited by - on

mmac
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 00:53:20

Todd,
I use a float charger from Harbor Frieght ($16) to keep my cheapo Kirkland wet cells charged up. WM has them for around $23. This works pretty well. It was the only charging system some powerboat guys on my old dock used when not underway.
Like you I'm upgrading my electrical system and this is a stop gap measure until I can install a Guest 3 stage.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 19:20:29

Good advice posted by everyone! My $0.02 is only to NEVER leave a charger untended for any length of time and trust it to not overcharge! Might not even be the fault of the charger!!!

Case in point: I installed an "automatic" battery charger/DC power system I got out of an Airstream Travel Trailer into Confetti. Worked great as a heavy duty power supply, and automatic battery charger that was "supposed" to taper off and go to a trickle charge when the batts came up.

The boat was in the driveway on its trailer for a "haulout", and I left it plugged in for a few days without entering the cabin. When I did climb up and open the companionway, I was flooded with white sulphuric acid smoke!!!!! (NASTY stuff!) The battery had gotten so hot it ruptured the case, and filled the plastic battery box with acid, and then proceeded to boil off the acid!!!! It took two CASES of baking soda to neutralize the acid on the interior of the boat!!!!!

The only thing I could think of was that the charger went nuts and boiled the battery dry, or that one cell shorted and boiled itself dry and the charger did not cutoff during all of that!

The charger turned into a spare parts source for other electronics projects and now I never leave a charger unattended for very long at a time..... (yeah I was dumb, and I am not much smarter now!!!) <grin>

Chuck

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 19:25:34

My boat came with a Guest charger. It shorted out and the sparks went flying the first time I fired it up.
I now have a truecharge 10 amp 3 step charger for my two absorbed glass matt batteries. No problems yet.
I do leave it unattended. Now I'm scared.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 19:35:13

Tim,

If I remember correctly, Arlyn Stewart put together a state-of-the-art electrical system. You might check tech tips or hail him directly.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/24/2004 : 20:16:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cshaw
 climb up and open the companionway, I was flooded with white sulphuric acid smoke!!!!! (NASTY stuff!) The battery had gotten so hot it ruptured the case, and filled the plastic battery box with acid, and then proceeded to boil off the acid!!!! It took two CASES of baking soda to neutralize the acid on the interior of the boat!!!!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The low amperage output of a 20~30 watt solar panel is one of the features I like about them. A small solar panel can't put out enough current to really damage a battery, especially if used with a charge controller, yet over the 5 days between weekends when I am at work, it's enough to top off the batteries and have them full-up for the next weekend cruise. At Folsom Lake, a solar panel ia pretty much mandatory anyway, since there is no shorepower to run a battery charger.

Edited by - on

tmhansen
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
397 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 00:43:21

I am leaning toward installing a Guest 2614 charger. It has the 3 stage charging ability for 2 banks I am looking for and can recharge our batteries overnight in a slip. (Thanks Ed I'll take you up on it! A 30 Amp cord?) I can also leave it plugged in in the driveway, although Chuck has me reconsidering that one!

I am going to install separate starting battery and a 200 amp hour house bank (eventually).

Someday I'd like to install a Link 20 monitor to watch amps, volts, etc from one small panel with quick visual on overall status.

Now to figure out a 12v distribution panel. I'm off to go review the examples shared here.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 14:10:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lcharlot
The low amperage output of a 20~30 watt solar panel is one of the features I like about them. A small solar panel can't put out enough current to really damage a battery, especially if used with a charge controller, yet over the 5 days between weekends when I am at work, it's enough to top off the batteries and have them full-up for the next weekend cruise. At Folsom Lake, a solar panel ia pretty much mandatory anyway, since there is no shorepower to run a battery charger.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are quite correct. I don't think I would be afraid of a solar panel for sure. Do you have yours permanently mounted or just secure it on the cabin top with tiedowns, etc.?

Chuck

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 03/25/2004 : 17:01:26

<center>C-25 Charging System Schematic</center>
<div align="right">by request from Al Eckhart</div id="right">

Al, here's a link to sheet 2, the [url="http://home.mpinet.net/%7Esissonl/boating/photos/c25_elec_sch_p2.gif"]12VDC Charging & High Current[/url] section of the rough draft schematics for my 1979 C-25. There were a few minor changes to the charging system as built from this schemetic. In particular, there is a 5A panel mount fuse in series with the positive lead from each solar panel. These fuses are physically located as close as practical to the positive terminal bus bars of the house bank batteries, so that they protect the long wires from the permanently mounted solar panels to the batteries.

And while we're at it, here's a link to an old photo of my upgraded [url="http://home.mpinet.net/%7Esissonl/boating/photos/C25_elec_panel_11.JPG"]electrical distribution panel under construction[/url].

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.