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Swing Keel Cable Broke At Mooring

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Ron99
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/25/2004 : 18:59:22

Yesterday, the keel cable either broke or pulled out of the cable fork attached to the keel of my boat. The boat is currently moored in a slip with 4 feet of water clearance at high tide. The keel now seems to be embedded in the muck (even at high tide) under the boat and I can not move the boat in any direction. What are my challenges and dangers for getting a cable on the keel while it is in the water so I can pull th keel up? If I can get a tempary fix, I can move the boat to another marina (10 miles) that has a boat lift out.

Ron Clark

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 19:14:46

Hi Ron,

'Sorry to hear about your problem. I've been sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out what I'd do if I were in your shoes.

If the fitting/fork on the keel broke off, I don't see any way you're going to get a new cable attached while the boat's still in the water ... there wouldn't be any way to attach it.

You said the boat was stuck and wouldn't move in any direction ... were you trying to move it with the outboard? I'm wondering if you couldn't get some sort of powerboat in there at high tide, hook up a towing bridle to either the bow eye or the bow cleats, and try to pull it to deeper water (and then to the marina with the boat lift).

Right now I'm out of airspeed and ideas ... I hope others will respond with some other options.

Please keep us posted on your progress, and good luck!

edited for bad grammer

Edited by - Buzz Maring on 04/25/2004 19:21:13

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 20:43:04

I read a long time ago about a guy using a 'preventer' strap wrapped around his boat and under the keel in the up position.He too was in a shallow slip and worried about cable failure.Maybe you could pass a line under the bow,catch the keel,and pull it up with your cockpit winches or possibly a come-a-long.If my cable ever breaks I hope it does at low tide and hits the mud like yours did.At high tide it would be swinging free.Good luck and let us know the outcome,thier are a a lot of us with swing keels.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 21:17:33

Ron,

Some variation of the method Craig described seems to be the standard procedure for dealing with a swing keel cable failure (any brand) here in the shoal waters of Florida. What ever you do, try not to let the keel sink any further into the sand and mud. And don't release the keel from the boat at the pivot. That would make an already bad situation much worse.

The idea is to work a 30' or so loop of 1/2" dock line under the boat starting at the bow. When the line is past the mid-point of the keel, use the primary winches to tension it. This will likely only partially lift the keel. Look into using wadded up towels, carpet or wood scraps, or something to protect the fiberglass from chafe where the taught line rubs against it. Be careful not to let the line slip off the aft end of the keel!!! You may need to combine this method with winching or towing the boat forward to release and unbury the keel from the bottom. Once the whole length of the keel is accessable, it might be better to have the jury rigged line wrapped around the keel a couple of turns (perhaps in a clove hitch) to discourage it from sliding off aft, and dropping the keel against its fragile fiberglass stop.

As for applying a lot of towing force, consider looping a long piece of 5/16" or 3/8" line around the bow eye and each of the bow cleats, forming sort of a 6-legged towing bridle a few feet ahead of the boat. Then connect a larger, longer tow line through those three loops, so as to spread the strain on the bow fittings. Another method of distributing a lot of towing tension is to run a large line all the way around the boat at about the rub rail, once again padded with carpet scraps, plywood, hose, etc. and held in place by light lashing lines, duct tape, or whatever, up to the stanchions, etc.

But don't delay. The situation you describe is putting a lot of stress on your hull below the waterline!!!

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

km0e
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 21:59:31

Ron, I don't know how far out of the slip you need to move the boat to get 5' or more but here is what I had to do once. I am on a Corp Of Engineers Lake in Missouri. In the fall of 2001 the lake level dropped and my C22 was on the ground tied to a dock. The keel was cranked up and I only needed to back up apx. 1 foot to be floating again. I had no luck getting the outboard to move it. I tied off one of the lines to the bottom of the mast and went over to the dock next to mine, pulled on the line pulling the mast towards me, heeling the boat and effectively raising the keel. I had read about this in an article. My only concern is your keel is down and this may put too much pressure on the pivot pin and bolts. I'm sorry to hear about your problem, hope you have some good luck soon!

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2004 : 22:58:13

Back in 1997, our second son was knee boarding on Lake Powell, when his prosthetic leg came off, and sank to the bottom in 150 feet of water. Needless to say, the insurance company was not thrilled about replacing a $5,000 leg. We brainstormed about how to get it back and somebody suggested hiring out a scuba guy to go searching. We almost went that route but ended up writing the leg off as lost. I'm thinking for a half days work, maybe an experienced diver could do a cable replace underwater. Sell the story to some sail mag to recoup costs. Good luck. Todd Frye.

Edited by - on

n/a
deleted

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 09:37:33

Ron, When I bought my boat it had the keel stuck in the mud. The methods descibed by others for raising the keel should work. You need to check the boat for damage. From resting on the keel the keel pivot pin was bent and needed to be replaced, one keel bolt was broken and another was streched and bent. Got all the parts from Catalina Direct. All very fixable, all part of the joy of owning a swing keel.

Good luck,

Brad, "Magic" C-25 SK #3123

Edited by - on

megrier
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 09:49:18

Hi Ron 99,
I don’t like to admit it but this happened to me also. I had the boat on a shallow mooring and had to have the keel retracted. By the end of the summer the wave action weakened the keel cable and it broke at the fitting on the keel.

Well..... I was very distressed to say the least!!!

For 2 days I emailed, phone called, etc.....for ideas and advice.
The best idea I heard was to buy a strap with a ratchet. The kind that a flat bed semi trailer would use. So, I went to the local Farm and Fleet (I live in Wisconsin, “Farm and Fleet is a giant Hardware store) and bought 2 of the longest ratcheting straps I could find. I think they where 20 feet long x 3” wide?

I brought a good friend out to the boat and we took the first strap and looped it around the bow and pulled it back (we attached a vise grips to the strap to make it sink) until we could feel it against the keel. I positioned the strap way back around the stern some how (I can’t remember exactly how.) I then started ratcheting! Is ratcheting a word? ..... Well anyway I ratcheted and ratcheted and ratcheted!!!!!! each pull on that ratchet is about 1/2”! BUT, it worked!!!

Slowly the keel began to raise. As it got higher though we began to wonder about the angle of the strap. So, my friend put on a swimming mask and went down. He could see that the strap would slip off from the keel if I continued to raise it. So, we brought out the second strap. We went to the bow again and each walked it back until we could feel it against the keel. It was basically at mid ship where the winches are. He dove down again ( keep in mind he did this holding his breath! ... A very good friend!) he placed the strap against the keel and held it while I started ratcheting. It did take several attempts but it worked!!!!!

Slowly the keel began to come up. We finally got it all the way to the top by moving the straps and continuing to ratchet. You may think that the diving was hard but I can tell you ratcheting was tiring! The ratchet handles on those truckers straps are only about 6” long so you do not have much leverage.

I was then able to motor slowly back to a boat launch on my lake and actually put the boat on the trailer. We had made sure to have the last position of the strap at the very end of the keel so we where able to get the boat on the trailer.

I currently have the boat getting the cable and the keel pin along with the keel casting replaced. I am keeping the boat at a slip this year because Lake Mendota here in Wisconsin has moorings that are not protected and I don’t want to go through this again.

Megrier

Edited by - on

Ron99
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 11:07:51

Thank you all for your quick responses. I see I am in deep yogart as well as mud. Time to think, get parts, and then plan the fix.

Edited by - on

bsmudd
1st Mate

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61 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:02:10

If water depth is not an issue, should the keel always be left down whenever possible?

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 12:12:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bsmudd
 If water depth is not an issue, should the keel always be left down whenever possible?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think the usual consensus is to leave it down. Personally, I never raise mine unless I'm going to put it on the trailer, or unless I hit something

Edited by - on

77Gypsy
Captain

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USA
356 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 20:13:19

sorry to hear about that. when you leave the boat do you hkeep the keel up or down, i have heard that on the swingers you should always leave the keel down at the dock to prevent strain on the cable. I have also heard people, even in this forum that dock with the keel up and have never had a problem.

Edited by - on

premodco
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 23:00:00

I would get the keel out of the mud. I know somebody who had a lot of damage to the pivot area because of all the twisting that went on.

If you can get in the water, make up a loop out of cable or rope and slip it around the keel a foot or so from the end. run the other end up through the hull and use the keel winch to raise it

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2004 : 23:49:58

After reading these replys I am giving serious thought to having a preventer strap rigged under the keel the next time I leave the boat.Or find a marina with deeper water.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2004 : 00:13:10

Hmmm... your keel cable broke in fresh water. Do you know the history of the boat (fresh/saltwater) and the age of the cable?

IMHO Catalina made a big mistake using the roller crimped ends. I'll probably do something different when I haul mine later this summer.

I crank my keel up just enough to balance the boat close to her lines... early model Catalinas sit bow down with the keel lowered and the cockpit empty.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2004 : 10:58:37

Ron: Looking at the old brochure drawing, my observation is that the main winches are too far aft for hoisting the keel safely. The trucker's strap positioned in the V at the coaming and the cabin bulkhead would seem to be just about right. It might not take much to free it at dead high tide. If you lift it like that, I'd suggest that you lower it as soon as possible after getting into deeper water--you don't want an accidental free-fall.

Are you in the slip bow-in or bow-out? If the latter, how far would you have to drag the keel to get to 5'+ depth? If not too far, I'd try that first (with a powerboat, using the bow eye, which is designed to winch the boat up-hill onto a trailer). I think I'd leave the cleats out of it--they're not intended for the forces the bow eye is, and they would tend to pull the bow down. And I wouldn't "kedge" (tip) the boat in this situation.

Best of luck...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/27/2004 11:00:49

RoofRoof
Navigator

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USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2004 : 13:44:32

Same thing happened to me 2 weeks ago. I was to flustered and worried about the consequences. So, my chickie said......why don't you call the bottom cleaning guy. No problem...2 hours later he met me at the boat. Pulled the cable as far down as possible and he looped it thru the fork. (cable broke just above the fork/swage). He used a simple U-shaped clamp with 2 nuts to tighten. Cost me $55 and about an hour. Now I can take it to where ever I like to paint the bottom and replace all keel hardware.

Edited by - on

Ron99
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2004 : 10:02:16

Update - After two hours of a diver in the water, I still do not have "lift-off". The cotter pin in the clevis pin has been hacked at and the ends of the c. pin keep the c. pin from being removed. The diver is learning at my expense, which will continue today. Lock pliers for stabilizing the clevis pin should help etc. A heads up for you future cable swingers. The air bubbles from the diver find their way up the keel hose and shoots water onto the cushions etc. around the ladder. Cover the end with a newspaper plastic sleeve and hold your hand over the opening to control the air release.

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2004 : 11:06:13

Update - After two hours of a diver in the water, I still do not have "lift-off". The cotter pin in the clevis pin has been hacked at and the ends of the c. pin keep the c. pin from being removed. The diver is learning at my expense, which will continue today. Lock pliers for stabilizing the clevis pin should help etc.

I'm a bit confused ... where did the cable assembly break?

A heads up for you future cable swingers. The air bubbles from the diver find their way up the keel hose and shoots water onto the cushions etc. around the ladder. Cover the end with a newspaper plastic sleeve and hold your hand over the opening to control the air release.

That's interesting ... I hadn't thought about that ... my concern was that a diver might not have enough room to maneuver and work underneath the boat with a SCUBA tank on his back.

BTW, instead of the plastic sleeve, you might try stuffing a sponge down the tube ... it should keep the water out but still let it "breathe."

Thanks for the update, and good luck getting her fixed!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2004 : 19:25:37

'The cotter pin in the clevis pin has been hacked at and the ends of the c. pin keep the c. pin from being removed.'

Try some 'diagonal cutters'... get a 'bite' on the cotter pin just under the 'head' and use the cutter as a lever. They will almost always come out this way... hacked ends or not. just don't over-do it so you cut the head of the pin off.

Edited by - on

Ron99
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2004 : 23:44:45

The cable pulled out of the fork fitting.

I will try the sponge.

The head of the cottor pin has been hacked off -- thus one of my problems.

High tide did not raise the boat today, so no progress was made.

I tried to raise the keel with a 5/8" line under the boat and run through the main cranks. Did not seem to raise the keel at all.

The bottom end of the keel is buried at least in three feet of mud, so the diver is working totally by feel.

Edited by - on

RL
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2004 : 11:02:05

We sail Free Spirit a 78 SK/SR in fresh water only. Which is harder on the keel, cables and hardware. Fresh or Salt? It's been ten years since the keel has had the pivit pin and cable replaced. We havn't detected any play and am curious how long some of these rigs do last.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2004 : 06:37:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The cable pulled out of the fork fitting.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe you can fasten the cable along side the fork with some wire rope clips temporarily to get the keel up. Might have to insert something into the fork so it doesn't crush on you. 5/16" clips might work.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2004 : 09:48:31

"Fresh or Salt? "

Saltwater is what usually gets them. The roller-swaged fitting that Catalina used/uses is very succeptible to corrosion... especially right at the point where the fitting meets the cable.

I think if the fitting is slightly over-swaged it produces 'micro cracks' in the stainless cable that gives saltwater an opportunity to attack... or there may be quality variations in the cable itself. This may explain the observed variation in lifespans... some folks have these last 25 years... (including mine). Some have reported failure in the first year (from a replacement cable).

When I replace my cable next time, I'm going to put my own sta-lock fitting on. (not swaged)

Advice to Ron... (if you don't have it out yet). Get a 4" X 8" timber about 12' long, 50' of
1/4" cable, some cable clamps and a come-along. Lay the timber athwarships as close to the cabin as you can get it. See-saw the cable down under the keel. Use the cable clamps to form loops in the cable as needed. With the ends of the timber as anchors for the lift, use the come-along to raise the keel. Put pieces of wood and carpet between the cable and the hull to keep the cable from cutting or scratching the hull. You'll have her out of there in a couple hours.

Edited by - on

Ron99
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 05/03/2004 : 09:52:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RL
 We sail Free Spirit a 78 SK/SR in fresh water only. Which is harder on the keel, cables and hardware. Fresh or Salt? It's been ten years since the keel has had the pivit pin and cable replaced. We havn't detected any play and am curious how long some of these rigs do last.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The boat was sailed in the Chesapeake Bay 94-95: mixed water.

I have had the boat in the Potomac River - fresh since 95.

The cable is at least 10 years old as I have not replaced.

The boat is kept in the water most winters, but not all.

The last hurricane to come through the area raised the boat over the bulkhead by two - three feet and may have caused cable strain.

I am going to use the next high tide with a wind from the south (pushes water up from the Chesapeake Bay) to attach a cable loop and clamp so I can get out of the mud, moved to a marina with a lift out. I plan to band the Keel with line and a truck strap to keep the keel in place. Target move on Thursday 5/6.

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 05/07/2004 : 02:57:39

So how's it going Ron...any luck yet?

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