Association Forum - Electrical Blues

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Electrical Blues

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

arlingva
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
116 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/20/2004 : 03:03:40

Too many options, not enough simple answers.

I have a 2002 250 WK. I have two batteries. One factory installed in its original location near the transom. One dealer installed under the galley sink. They are connected by a PERKO Battery Selector Switch. I also have a Honda 9.9, 4 stroke, with an alternator. Because of neglect and abuse my batteries are now so severly discharged they are worthless. So I am in a situation where I am now starting over from scratch. I would like to do a new installation and do it once and do it correctly. I have read the posts on this site. The Boat US catalog and Don Casey's book (twice). This has lead me to the conclusion I am not very intelligent because I still have numerous questions and any help would be appreciated.

I would like to install one or two batteries under the forward berth. (I prefer this location because the 250 needs more weight forward.) I am considering 6volt golf cart batteries. The posts on this site have lead me to believe I can connect my engine or a solar panel directly to one of the batteries and as long as my battery selector switch is in the "all" position both batteries will charge. Is this correct? Can I do this if I have 6 volt batteries also?

Should I be concerned about the approximately 20 foot run from the engine to the battery?

I would also like to install an inverter/charger or battery charger. Would this be run directly to the switch or through a circuit breaker panel and directly to the batteries?

As you can see, I'm clueless.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Bill

Bill Swanson
C250WK #614

Edited by - on

austin72
1st Mate

Members Avatar

48 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2004 : 15:25:21

Hi Bill,
Just my opinion, but I would spend the $$ and get true marine deep cycle batteries. They are expensive but you get what you pay for. Most applications for your battery system will be long term, low drain. Golf cart batteries are subject to short burst, high drain lives and are most likely designed for that type of work.
Plus, true deep cycle batteries don't get a memory like typical batteries, so you can neglect them and they'll still charge up.
One other thing - you probably know but I've heard it done - never have the battery selector on 'off' when the motor is running. You'll fry your alternator.

Here's an example of the real deal. It's not your Wal-Mart 'deep cycle'.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2004 : 15:29:05

The two 6 volt batteries will have to be connected together in SERIES to appear as a 12V source (compatible with the rest of your system). Each one of the batteries supplies 6V...

Putting batteries in series causes the voltage to be additive while the available amps remains constant at the capacity of a single battery.

Putting batteries in parallel causes the amperage be additive while the voltage remains constant at that supplied by a single battery.

I'd combine the two with unswitched connectors (conventional battery cables) right at the bank and run two 'outside' leads back to meet the rest of your system.

Where the leads connect back to your system it will appear to be a single 12V battery. Depending on how many batteries you'll be having in your system you may need a more sophisticated combiner switch.

Edited by - on

Ellis Bloomfield
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2004 : 15:43:03

Bill,
I put a $12.00 garden tractor battery in my port locker and use it for the engine. (At least one other on this site mentioned doing the same.) I've used mine for two seasons but at that price they are practically disposable, and there are no issues with interconnecting and long lines. You don't use the engine long enough to be concerned about charging house batteries with it anyway.
Ellis

Edited by - on

Waterboy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2004 : 15:53:25

Bill,

I'd love have those batteries in austin72's picture, but they are $$, and they can (I believe) still be ruined by improper charging or other neglect. If I were spend the $$ on those, I'd also get an excellent 3 or 4 stage charger/inverter as well as an excellent battery monitoring system and wire it all with Ancor marine wire. If I shopped well and got decent deals, I think I could set up such a system with around 300 amp-hours for about $1000.00.

But ain't got that kinda cash to spend, instead I have a few bucks, my brain and hands, and time.

Here's what I've done thus far.

http://c250sabrosa.home.mindspring.com/DSC00080.JPG

It's not the greatest pic, but to get the whole rig wrestled out from underneath there would be a grunt, so I'll explain what you're looking at.

I got two 6 volt golf cart batteries (highly recommended by Casey) for $56 each. They're rated at 225 amp-hours each; connected in series I've the 225 amp-hours at 12 volts. Black plastic toolbox (about $12 at Walmart) fit the width perfectly, with a little 'carpentry' (I'm no carpenter) fit snugly enough with the battery-end on a Link 10 battery monitor ($200). The box is secured with a 2x4 frame painted and epoxied to the top of the water ballast tank ... don't wanna be drillin' holes in the WB tank or through the hull.

The wires in the picture are as follows: big black 2 gauge with crimped copper ends to connect the batteries and route back to the panel. Missing from the pic is the home made fuse holder (removed for design mods). Other wires, red and blue, green and yellow twisted pair join a 50 amp shunt that're part of the link 10 battery monitor mounted aft. You can see the wires running underneath the starboard hatch through a hole into the galley if you look carefully, left side about 3/5 up from the bottom. Also the 'nav station' light fixture and the gaping hole where the depth sounder was upper left. And of coure my big flat left foot along the top.

I splurged on the monitor. As a newbie to 12 v systems and having read quite a bit about batteries, they can all be ruined one way or another. I figured it was more important at this stage for me to learn how to charge and monitor them properly, so I bought cheaper batteries.

It's an experiment and a work in progress; take what works and leave the rest.

Greg

PS - If you leave the monitor wiring out (not really needed) it's actually a very simple system with quite a bit of current for little over $100.

Edited by - Waterboy on 05/20/2004 15:57:52

Waterboy
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2004 : 16:04:49

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This has lead me to the conclusion I am not very intelligent because I still have numerous questions...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Nonsense.

You, like myself are just in unfamilar terrain. I ask all kinds questions. I suggest you simply take your time, learn, be willing to make mistakes, ask questions, and get going.

I enjoy not only the sense of accomplishment when I learn/build something new, but I take great comfort in knowing I can (probably) fix it if it breaks.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 15:48:11

I remember when I started I also read a couple of those books. While they're pretty good at teaching the basics of theory, which is important to know (voltage, current, resistant, load budgets, voltage drop, wiring techniques, etc.), they're not great at telling exactly "what to do" on your boat (given its limitations) with your needs/wants.

I also went through a couple batteries before I learned that it's really important to have a way to keep them fully charged all the time, especially when I wasn't using the boat. I also have a small alternator on my engine, but even a big one means I'd have to run the engine a lot (and frequently) -- so it doesn't help much. I originally bought the least expensive three stage charger available (Guest 6 amp portable, at the time was about $30). It's great because it's portable, so I can take it with me if I sell the boat; but it only charges one battery at a time (or two golf cart batteries in series). I used to only charge them back up after coming back from a trip, but if it was a Fall trip, then they would sit if my next trip was in the Spring (possibly 4+ months later). Just sitting would drain the batteries, and they couldn't keep as big a charge after I charged them back up. So now I keep it hooked up all the time -- makes a big difference.

Let me say I probably use more power than most (except daysailing in which I use very little). For example, on a week-long trip, the TV/VCR gets used a lot. Every night two lights may be on all night (anchor light and v-berth light because the kids are still young and want a nightlight). Other interior lights get used a lot. Radios (both VHF and FM/CD player) get used. Tillerpilot, running lights, etc...you see the point. I used to have capacity problems. A lot of folks handle charging duties by spending more than I would like and be able to charge while on a trip (with solar chargers). For me it's simpler (no panels on deck) and cheaper to carry the full capacity for the trips I do and deal with charging after I get back.

Capacity problems -- When one of the old Group 27s needed replacing a while ago, I instead bought two golf cart batteries from Costco for about $45 each. They just fit in my stock battery locker (although I had to change the terminal wingnuts to regular nuts so the lid would close fully). As described by others, they must be wired in series (also charged together, in series) and are hooked up to the "A" on the A-B-Both switch. But now "B" was unused and I still had another Group 27 that was still pretty good. So I ran big wire from the "B" switch back to the little compartment/shelf under the portside bunk in the v-berth (aft end). It rests in a plastic battery box (which just fits in there and was only $10) which is securely strapped down so it can't fall out and the kids can't get at it. With this setup I can go a week with heavy electric use without any panels on deck, don't have to run the engine, etc.

But then I needed to be able to keep full mantanence charge on the forward Group 27 after returning home (and recharging with the portable charger). So I got a cheap $10 solar trickle charger from Harbor Freight, which seems to work well so far (it's pretty cheaply made, so I sealed the edges with caulk to keep water out). I stays in the dockbox while I'm on a trip.

If I was starting over again, I'd probably hard wire in the regular Guest 6 amp charger (about twice the price as the portable, but with two sets of leads), so both "A" and "B" batteries could be charged at once with one charger. And I'm sure others would do it different than me (e.g. bigger solar charging capacity), but those methods would cost more and my current system seems to be working well for my needs. Anyway, there's lots of ways to skin a cat which the books don't really help your specific case much, but I'd thought I'd share how I did it.

Edited by - on

arlingva
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
116 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 17:19:49

Thanks to all for the responses. I'm getting closer to the "right" answer all the time. Thanks especially for the pictures and Richard I read you posts with great interest. My little ones are 4 and 7 and I have used many of your ideas over the last few years.

Thanks again all!

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2004 : 20:34:19

I forgot -- for monitoring voltage (i.e. percentage of charge in each battery), I use a little cheap digital voltmeter which plugs into the cigarette lighter (about $10 at an auto parts store). Turn the main switch to "A" or "B" to read the voltage of the corresponding battery, then toss it back in the drawer.

As my setup is on a C25, your setup will clearly be different; but it sounds like Greg has figured out a pretty good (and economical) one for the 250.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.