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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Trailer Tongue Weight how much is enough?

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Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/02/2004 : 22:30:12

When I picked up my boat I knew it didn’t have enough tongue weight. If I stepped on the swim ladder the front of the boat would go up if it wasn’t hooked to anything. My guess there was only 40 lbs. on the tongue. Since the wheel assemblies are welded in place the only way to adjust this is to move the bow stop and boat forward on the trailer. I have now moved the boat forward about a foot and have about 205 lbs. on the tongue. The boat now pulls fine at 60 MPH but will still sway back and forth while being passed by a big rig or a large motor home. This is not fun because the boat out weighs the truck.and I have to slow down to 50 MPH to calm it down. This would indicate that I am still light on the tongue weight. Also you are suppose to have between 10 to 15 % of the total load on the tongue for any trailer. Since this boat weighs about 3800 lbs. and the trailer is about 1000 lbs. plus the motor and other junk this would put the load at around 5000 lbs. 10% is 500 lbs. and 15% is 750 lbs. Of tongue weight. According to the book then we should have between 500 and 750 lbs. of tongue weight.
So my question to everyone is how much tongue weight do you have on your trailer with the boat on it? I just used a bath room scale and a block of wood to get my reading and just lowered the front of the boat with the tongue jack on the scale to get a reading, My travel trailer does have 600 lbs. of tongue weight but I use load leveling bars to move some of the load to the front of the truck. Does any one use these on their boat trailers?

Keith
Southern California
250wb Hull #8

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2004 : 12:35:31

Keith; When I picked up my boat from winter storage this year, my route takes me by a certified truck scale. So I decided that this topic has come up time and again and that I would get our c250 weighed. The boat had nothing in it, with the exception of what is attached, and no 8hp Honda attached. The boat and trailer weighed 5120 lbs and the boat and trailer attached to my Tahoe (not on the scale) weighed 4480 lbs.

Ray Seitz
2002 C250 WB #628

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2004 : 16:47:25

Keith,

Tongue weight also has much to do with the height of the hitch. A lower hitch increase the weight load on the front axle and a higher hitch moves more weight to the back axle. A weight inbalance between the axles may have some effect.

There are some who believe that increasing back axle tires more than the forward axle helpes reduce sway.

Even a well balanced load, will be affected by the wind forces of a tractor trailer rig passing to the left with the effect of a single sway event. If that sway is more than one cycle however, your right in that a trailering problem exist.

I believe 17.5 inches of ball height should be a minimum, that number works well for me, and any lesser number shows some problems.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2004 : 20:22:31

Read the book that came with the brakes....if you have surge brakes, the load leveling bars can INTERFERE WITH THEIR OPERATION...

In addition to Arlyn's points, the wheel base of the towing vehicle is important. (the smaller the dog, the easier for the tail to wag the dog). I use a 1/2 ton Suburban with very good results. I do indeed estimate the tongue weight at 5-700 lbs.

Other weight shifting suggestions: Fill the water tank (about 120lbs) Put the "stuff" forward of the axles. That's a double edged sword. Not only do you increase the weight forward, you decrease the weight aft....

Oscar
Catalina 250WB#618 Currently FOR SALE:
http:www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

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Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2004 : 20:46:57

If I have the math right Ray is telling me he has 640lbs. of tongue weight. 5120 – 4480 = 640lbs. This would be right in line with the book, which gave me a figure of 500 to 750, lbs. The problem now comes to the capacity of the hitch. I have a class IV hitch that has a max tongue weight of 500 lbs. with out weight distributing bars, from 500lbs. to 1000lbs of tongue weight requires the weight distributing bars. At 640 lbs. you have over loaded the hitch system with out the use of the weight distribution bars. Does any one use these on their boat trailers?
As far as the hitch height I have an adjustable hitch and have it setup so the trailer is level. This does come out to about 18”. The trailer does keep swaying until I slow down or turn I stay in the slow lane so I can turn onto the shoulder, a little, which stopped the swaying after being passed by a big rig. It does look like I need at least another 200 lbs. of tongue weight.
Has any one else out there weighed the weight on the tongue of their trailer? To do this with a tongue weight of 500-750 lbs you would have to set up a 1 to 1 fulcrum so only 50% of the weight would be on the scale. This would be in the range of most bathroom scales.
Oscar you are right. The bars would keep the surge breaks from working correctly. My travel trailer has electric breaks, which I use with the bars. This seems to bring up an over all problem with tongue weights of over 500 lbs. and max tongue weight allowed on a class IV of 500 lbs. I believe that number of 500 lbs. also shows up on the ball, the draw bar, and the coupler. It looks like quite a few components of this hitch system are being overloaded.

Edited by - Keith D. on 06/03/2004 21:03:43

ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 15:59:47

I used the meathod shown in the drawing at this website:
http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/tongueweight.html
to adjust the tongue weight when I hauled my 250 to Tuscon ,AZ from Austin...I could drive 60-65 no problem. I began to feel some sway when I got near Fort Stockton on IH 10, I thought I might have had a flat but when I got out to check I could barely open the door of the truck the winds were howling!, definetly 30 mph plus, so I just slowed to 40-50 till the winds died,
Steve

Edited by - ssteakley on 06/21/2004 16:03:45

Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2004 : 21:28:41

Steve when you used the drawing on the website to set your tongue weight what weight did you set it to?

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Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 23:35:05

I have gotten two replies on this question now and they are quiet a way apart. One has 640lbs of tongue weight thd the other has 952lbs of tongue weight. Steve put out a web site drawing on how to measure the tougue weight with a bathroom scale.http://www.rverscorner.com/articles/tongueweight.html Can I get any more input.

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dubedoo
1st Mate

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68 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2004 : 01:06:28

Hi Keith, I just weighed yesterday. 5120 lbs disconnected from the pickup and 4640 lbs connected. Calculates out to a 480 lb tongue weight which is within the 7-10% range that Catalina says works well for most trailers. The Honda motor was on the boat when I weighed along with just a small amount of other equipment/personal items. Going down the road I don't even know that the boat is back there but I am also conservative on my speed. Thought that it was interesting that my gross was the same as Ray Seitz's.

Steve

#702 WB

Edited by - on

Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2004 : 16:11:16

Steve it looks like if anyone asks the weight if a WB and trailer the number has got to be 5120 lbs. Where did you see that Catalina recommends 7-10% of the load for tongue weight? Which trailer do you have? (Is it a trail rite)? Have you made any adjustments to the bow stop? I am also conservative on my speed, I try to keep it down to 65 MPH, but my big problem now is at that low speed as the big rigs pass me is when the boat wants to whip back and forth. I really don't want to push it up to 70-75 mph to keep up with the big rigs. Thanks for your input I now have three 480 lbs., 640 lbs., and 952 lbs. Quiet a spread! Keith Umbreit C250 WB #8

Edited by - on

fredflemming
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2004 : 12:49:31

With regard to measuring tongue weight, a couple of cautions:

1. The height of the hitch must be exactly the same as when towing. Tilting the boat up or down moves its center of gravity back and forth and changes the proportion of weight carried by the axles versus the hitch. The technique (described in the previous posts) of weighing the boat/trailer combo alone on a truck scale and then repeating it with the tow vehicle attached and positioned off the scale seems to me to be the most accurate "weigh" to determine tongue weight.

2. When measuring the tongue weight using a bathroom scale (and possibly a beam and some blocks to divide the weight), remember that your jack is positioned closer to the fore-and-aft pivot point (the axles) than your hitch coupler is. Therefore, the weight as measured will be more than the actual tongue weight by the ratio of the distances. To get the correct tongue weight, measure the distance from the center of the axles forward to the jack and call it J. Then measure from the axles forward to the center of the hitch coupler and call it H. Calculate tongue weight:

Tongue weight = Jack weight times J divided by H

My boat is also probably a little light on the tongue when trailering. I have found that sway is worst when the trailer is tending to push the car, i.e. downhill or slowing. Therefore when a big rig passes me I give the engine slightly more gas and this tends to keep my whole rig pulled straight. Obviously you have to think whether this is appropriate or possible each time.

Fred Flemming
Pride of Macungie
1995 WB, Hull #92

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Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2005 : 21:52:08

I have moved the boat up on the trailer again. I now have 300# of tongue weight. This is up from the last move which gave me around 200#. At 200# the trailer was stable at 55 mph but at 60 it would swing around. Also at 55 of passed by a big truck it would swing a couple of times. Now that I have it at 300# it is stable at 65 mph unless a big truck passes on a downhill on a ruff road. I will then have to back it off to 60 mph so it is closer. I am going to try for another 50# and it should be good.

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atgep
Master Marine Consultant

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1009 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2005 : 22:17:44

Do not skimp on the tounge weight. If you can handle 500 lbs then that should be your starting point. A perfect 89wing was lost due to sway not long ago. The passengers were lucky to walk away from the rollover crash!

Now for the hardware. A 5 minute search online found a hitch that has 800/8000lb carrying capacity for $220. Match that with a 10000lb triple ball and you are set.

http://www.hitch-web.com/proDescrip.asp?ProductCode=260349&OID=8

This was for a 2003 Suburban and should be a pretty typical price for a common vehicle.

I have a 25 and use about 700lb and have no sway at all. It will move when I get passed but does not drag the truck at all.

Considering what you have riding on the road, it is pretty cheap.

Tom.

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Keith D.
Navigator

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USA
233 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2005 : 22:59:58

Tom the problem is not with the equipment on the van. It's getting more weight on the tongue. I now have moved the boat all of the way forward on the trailer. To get more weight I will have to move the wheels back. Which would entail new hangers and break lines. My trailer doesn't have the mast raising assembly so I was thinking of adding one to this trailer. That should give me the other 50# on the tongue, just in the extra steel from a plain bow stop. It was on the list anyway. On the first part of this post you will see that when I got the boat and trailer it only had 40# of tongue weight. The 480 miles I had to go to get it home was a slow go. Since then I have just been moving the boat to get more weight. At 300# it is finally starting to tow ok but more weight would help. I agree the more weight the better.

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johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2005 : 23:33:32

Keith
There are so many parameters involved towing trailers...The one parameter I tried to solve was RESONANTE FREQUENCY in respect to swaying.
Any speed over 60 mph air drag comes into play and that is an exponential parameter... and I'll save that for another time.
I have a 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee with air bags on the rear only and a 2004 C250 WK and have finnaly came up with a reasonable tounge wieght, in which, I drive 45-50 mph max uphill,downhill,crosswind or a semi-truck passing and no problem with swaying.
Now rough roads are another thing...I just slow down and hope.
I loaded the trailer tounge with sand bags and would drive, come back and add more bags and more bags, until I had max load the rear axles would take 750 lbs.
As I recall the best final wieght was

300 lbs

paulj

Edited by - johnsonp on 06/09/2005 23:44:07

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