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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Trailer overload

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Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/21/2004 : 17:38:30

Just got back from the B.E.E.R. trip, had a great time. The only problem encountered going across country was excessive wear on the inside of all 4 tires on the trailer.

It is a Trailrite with tandem 3500 lb drop axels. I assume it is as provided by Catalina.

Took it to my local scale to get a read on weight prior to unloading... 7960 lbs!!

Unloaded everything from boat and trailer (dumped water and holding, cushions, anchors, spare tires, the works!) except outboard, fuel tank, batteries, and stove. Weight was 7160. Even if I pulled the motor, tank, batteries and stove it would still be close to 7000 lbs.

Since this is a common trailer for the Cat 25, what gives? Did the factory really set these up that close to max trailer capacity?

Guess I need to upgrade to 5200 lb axels or add a third...

Anyone see similar weight numbers?

Doug & Mo Cavin
1990 C25 TR/WK #6010
"Valkyrie"

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 19:31:07

everyone
if you think the axles were overloaded, reflect on the brakes you were counting on

Edited by - on

Steve E
Deckhand

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1 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 20:30:30

What the factory did was to provide a trailer that would haul the published weight of the boat. Well, boats get heavy just as garages get full of junk. Anyway, if I get lucky enough to find a boat, the trailer is going in to be updated to 10K lbs capacity. Seems to me to be the wise thing to do. After all, that is a very large investment to carry around on a flimsy trailer. Oh yes, also a very large and heavy safety hazard.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 20:40:27

TrailRites were very common for the C25 . . . but I've never heard of this problem. Do you mean 3,500 lbs per axle? Keep in mind the designed-in fudge factor which is probably 10%.

Edited by - OJ on 06/21/2004 20:42:55

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 20:52:50

Just remember there was at least 500-1200 lbs of tunge weight on your truck that was not on your trailer at the time you were towing it. Also, tires are the most important part of a trailer, good tires will exceed axle strength to ofset total weight. But so many people oversize and undersize their tires.. At our yatch club we have 15 C25, they all have different size tires, no two are ever alike, even when they have the same trailers. I would also recommend that you use 4 wheel stainles steel disc brakes, much safer than drum bracks when using surge brakes.

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 20:53:08

Last season I weighed my Cat 25, a 78 swinger on an EZLoader with rollers. I am pretty dang sure that the weight (lots of cruising stuff on board) was 6300 ON THE AXELS, not counting the tongue weight, of course. It's in the archives somewhere under "weight", but I am not taking the time right now.....

Any chance the scale was off?

Gary B.
Vice Commodore

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 21:23:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">good tires will exceed axle strength to ofset total weight<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Whuh

Oscar
Catalina 250WB#618 Currently FOR SALE:
http:www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 21:56:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmeinert@kconline.com
 . . . But so many people oversize and undersize their tires . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

FWIW, the original tires on my TrailRite were rated for 2,130 lbs each.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2004 : 23:26:54

So the tires will be salvageable after the axles fold

I assume one of the big issues in axle ratings is the spindle strength, if the spindles go it will not matter what is left.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 08:36:34

This issue of under-rated trailer capacity is a common problem with Catalina 25's. The factory's published weight for the boat, 4300#, is way too low - most Catalina 25's seem to weigh closer to 6000# when fully loaded with food and cruising gear, and with tanks full. Last year, I was experiencing the same problems with abnormal tire wear on Quiet Time's trailer, and discovered that both axles (3750's of course) were so badly bent and misaligned that it was a miracle that I had never suffered a broken spring or other serious breakdown. Had the trailer rebuilt with 5200# axles and had NO trouble with it on the 6100 mile round trip to Virginia last September to buy my new Mk.IV WK.

It is my firm opinion that ALL Catalina 25's, of whatever configuration or model year, belong on 10,000# capacity trailers. The differences between the 7500 and 10000 trailers are not only heavier axles and springs: The main frame rails on the 10,000# trailer are 6" channel iron instead of 5", with 5" channel iron crossmmebers instead of 4". The tires are 15" Load Range "D" instead of 14" Load Range "C", the coupler is a DICO #10 (10,000$ rated unit) instead of the lighter Dico #6 (6000# model). The brake drums are 12" instead of 10" (if you order disc brakes instead of drums, they are larger too, of course). Hub bearings are larger and higher capacity, so don't get as hot as the smaller ones. I think that what really does in the 7500# trailers is when you run over a pothole - with a Catalina 25 sitting on the trailer, the 3750 axles are loaded right to the limit (if not overloaded), and the extra sudden loading of hitting road debris or a pothole bends the axle.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 10:01:54

"...the 3750 axles are loaded right to the limit..."

Agreed. There's no reserve capacity.

I've noticed some axle flex on my EZ-Loader... intend to beef them up by sistering another piece of 2x2 tubing underneath each one.

On the other hand, the rectangular tubing trailer frame seems plenty strong. IMHO the EZ-loader is a brilliant design (in it's simplicity). Except for the main frame rails every piece of the trailer is just a piece cut from a stock structural shape.

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 10:28:10

Hi All,

I personally know three C25 skippers who have added a third axel to their trailer because their boat - as it sits on the trailer - weighs in at ~6,000 lbs or more.

The lesson here is that each of us who trailers their boat should put the boat and trailer on truck scales to determine the actual weight that they're working with. I think that many will be surprised at how heavy the boat 'n trailer really are.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 10:34:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 So the tires will be salvageable after the axles fold

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, my point is that someone at Catalina and/ot TrailRite may have taken into consideration that the boat and trailer weigh more than the printed specs.

This is all pretty enlightening though. This topic has never come up at our marina where we have seasoned trailer sailors.

Edited by - OJ on 06/22/2004 10:36:58

Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 12:27:32

Scales were certified scales at a local landscape materials supplier. Should be close to accurate since they weigh the delivery trucks on them and DOT is very active around here.

The trailer weight was around 6800 lbs with hitch on truck, this was with the un-hitched weight at 7960. 1200 lbs on the hitch, sure am glad I've got the Ford Diesel with tow upgrades. Time for a weight distributing hitch though.

I've been running the Greenball Towmaster G78-14 ST tires. Load range C. 1870 lb rating. Won't make any change there until I sort out axel capacity (3 @ 3500, or 2 @5000)

Bill, can you provide any detail on the three triple axel conversions you mentioned? Any feedback on changes in towing characteristics with the triples? I am leaning this direction as the thought of being able to limp in on two axels if I had a non-road repairable issue on one is attractive.

Fortunately I have some time to work this out since the boat will be in a slip for awhile. May talk with Trailrite, but that might just get me a new trailer sales pitch.

One way or another I have to replace or rework this trailer before our next cross country adventure. Don't like worrying about the trailer on the road.

Once I get back from San Diego this weekend I will weigh the empty trailer to get an idea of actual boat weight.

Edited by - Doug C. on 06/22/2004 12:29:33

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 12:56:22

I do not think trailrite will try to sell you a trailer, they are pretty much OEM and have not made a C25 trailer in 15 years.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 20:53:12

As I sit hear and read about everybody's trailer 'adventures', I am even happier that my boat spends it's life securely moored (permanently) in a wet slip.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2004 : 21:18:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I am even happier that my boat spends it's life securely moored (permanently) in a wet slip.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm, when Isabel was rummaging through the Chesapeake Lady Kay was mighty snug in the driveway.....

Oscar, heading for a mooring.....

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2004 : 08:57:16

Hi Doug,

In all three cases where an owner added a third axel, they matched the third axel to the first two. I forget now, but it seems to me that two of the owners moved the original axels forward and added the new axel at the back. The third owner added the new axel at the front, moving the original two back on the trailer. The middle axel in all cases was close to the middle of the balance point - allowing for around 850 lbs to 1,000 lbs tongue weight.

All three owners stated that the trailer became much more stable when towing. It seemed to track behind the truck straighter.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2004 : 09:10:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Doug C.
 
Bill, can you provide any detail on the three triple axel conversions you mentioned? Any feedback on changes in towing characteristics with the triples?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The triple axles have a couple of disadvantages: even more "scrubbing" of the tires than on a double axle (scrubbing happens when going around corners). Triple axles usually cost more at toll gates, if you have to use toll roads or cross toll bridges. When I take my boat to San Francisco Bay, I have to cross the bridge at Carquinez Strait; each additional axle on a trailer costs $7.50 more in tolls. Admittedly, I only trailer to the Bay Area once every couple of years or so, so the extra toll bridge cost is pretty insignificant.
Also, it is likely that adding a third axle to a trailer will require the two existing axles to be moved so that the center of mass of the load is still properly balanced over the undercarriage. Moving the existing axles will involve several costs: welding new spring shackles, modifying or replacing brake lines, and sandblasting and repainting around the welded areas. Unless you can do all this yourself, it will cost several hours of shop labor at $75/hour, plus the price of the parts, paint, and sandblasting. Figure well over $1000. It will possibly be cheaper to replace your two existing 3750 axles with a pair of 5200# or 6000# axles. Get price quotes on both options and go with the one that offers the best price/benefit ratio.

Edited by - on

Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2004 : 15:05:31

Cheaper to add a third axel for me. I can do the work (with help from friends) so 1 axel, 2 hubs with brakes, two tires, two springs, two fenders, and some hardware is cheaper.

A rough comparison from the Champion catalog has me at $750 for the third axel and $1350 to convert to the 5200 lb axels.

Decisions, decisions....

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 11:54:08

The precursor to our current C-25 was a C-22 swinger we (a partnership of 4) drove to San Diego to pick up. After the test sail and paper work, we loaded the boat and headed out for the return trip to Utah. Approaching the Interstate, we were getting some “amazed” looks from the cars passing us. Of course we thought it was because we were towing this really cool boat, but then people started pointing and seemed way too animated, even for Californians. Looking proudly back at our pride and joy, something was really wrong. The boat was listing. The right axle had broken off and the 2x2 tubular axle frame was furrowing a great rut in the blacktop. Our tow vehicle was a Dodge Ram, with a Cummins diesel. We honestly felt no slow down or even a hint of engine labor when the trailer started to plow up the road. We might have ended up back in Utah with a one wheel trailer. All the above discussions are irrelevant, if you have a sizeable tow vehicle. Fair Winds. Todd Frye

Edited by - on

Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2004 : 12:22:05

Too funny, Todd.

I'm pretty sensitive to the trailers I pull. I've had a bearing sieze on this trailer... yes, I replaced both axles with new 3500# axels in March... (insert sound of head hitting wall here)

Sure wish I would have weighed the boat before that project... $1200 in axels, brakes, hubs, and tires that are insufficient...

I also pull a travel trailer that has a problem with tires separating. The radial trailer tires we use on it do not like to sit for long periods and then be taken out on AZ highways at 110 degree ambient temps. When those skins come off they will do real damage. Had one take out the plumbing on the black water holding tank on a trip down to Mexico, don't think anybody was too close behind when it went...

Edited by - Doug C. on 06/25/2004 12:23:31

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