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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

wing v. swing

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scarin
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/30/2004 : 23:52:11

A localinstructor friend of mind said wing over swing is the way to go. However for trailoring it seems that swing makes more sense. Any thoughts from the group. I am a fairly new sailor (2 years) and this is my first boat purchase. I like the Cat 25 and am interested in purchasing one, but am a little confused about which keel makes more sense.

Larry S.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 01:05:06

I think the wing preferred by MOST people for its strength and simplicity... especially in saltwater.

However, if you are trailering a lot, sail in shoal waters and/or are primarily based in freshwater then the swinger can get the nod. It does sit a bit lower on the trailer (8"), the swing keel is handy as a curb-feeler for shallow waters and offers a little better performance than the wing. They are also available at a substantially lower price than a wing.

The downside of the swinger is that you have some extra parts that you MUST maintain for your safety. Are you a maintenance-oriented kind of person? Or would you rather not have to mess around with stuff (wing)?

Another question.. what sort of vision do you have for your boat?

Thinking of trailering a lot? The C25 is about as big a sailboat as you can trailer... it takes a real truck to tow one safely and the size of the boat can be intimidating.

Note that it is a 'trailerable sailboat' rather than a 'trailer-sailor'. (sounds like it'just semantics, but it's a big difference). The C25 is a boat you'd take somewhere for a week... trailering and launching for day sails is a bit of a chore. True trailer-sailors, like the Catalina 22, various MacGregors (& others) are more suitable for short-duration launches.

Overall though, as a trailerable/affordable coastal cruiser/weekender the C25 is darned hard to beat... wing, fin or swing. It has good manners in the water, ample accomodations for it's size, is very safe, and also has a 'big boat' feel that can prepare you for other boats 'up the line'.

Whatever boat you go to look at... read the online articles on 'surveying a C25'... and any other reading you can dredge up on surveying boats in general. If you're not a 'tool time' kind of person... get a professional survey or take an experienced boat hand to help you look her over.

Be sure not to forget the condition of the trailer... they are expensive to replace.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 07:21:18

Litle error above, the wing draws 2 inches more than a swing keel boat. The paragraphs above deserve a lot of consideration though. Especially the part about needing a big truck and some serious trailering experience to get it right. Dave

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frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 07:46:57

The wing gives you more head room inside.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 09:59:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by frankr
 The wing gives you more head room inside.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I believe that's only in the 1989 model that was revised to take advantage of the elimination of the swing option--and even then it's a very small difference, based on the one I've been in. (The C-250 is a different story.)

If you are in salt water, the wing is by far the better choice. Otherwise, the swing gets the nod over the wing only for racing performance and initial purchase price. (Cost of ownership, including depreciation, favors the wing.) For trailering, there is virtually no difference. "Curb feeling" is great if the curbs are mud or sand--around here, they're granite, and you don't want to feel them with anything.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 10:45:29

"Litle error above, the wing draws 2 inches more than a swing keel boat."

True enough... I was referring to the way the boat sits on the trailer. I'd read (here?) that the wing has to sit up 6 to 8 inches higher due to the geometry of the keel. (The angle of the swing keel to the bottom allows her to sit bow down).

Can any of the swing-to-wingers out there verify or debunk this ? Am curious as I'm contemplating the conversion myself.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 11:08:14

When I had my wing installed, I actually had to put a board on the swing keel tray on the trailer for the wing keel to rest on because my boat is pretty high on the trailer. I suspect my trailer setup was higher than normal, though, for a swing keel.

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 11:53:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">They are also available at a substantially lower price than a wing. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the swing gets the nod over the wing for initial purchase price<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Also remember there are substantially fewer wings than swings -- thus you may have to wait a lot longer and/or travel a lot further to get one.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 13:30:43

The Wing Keel boat does NOT have to sit higher on the trailer than the Swinger, if the trailer's two center crossmembers are fabricated properly to accomodate the flat bottom of the wing. Sacramento's local trailer builder, DHM Trailers, has made dozens of trailers for both Wing and Swing C-25's over the years; the ONLY difference between them is the shape of the two center crossmembers. The roller bunks are adjusted to exactly the same position, and the rest of the trailer's frame members, undercarriage, and tongue, are identical. The boat's, whether swing or wing, sit in the same position, at the same height. Launching and retrieving them onto the trailers is no more or less difficult for swing or wing, and in fact is a little simpler for the wing as you do not have to climb back into the cabin to drop the keel onto the trailer frame as you do with the swinger. Now the FIN keel C-25 is a different story completely. These sit MUCH higher on the trailer, and require you to use a 20' tongue extender for launch and retrieve operations.

As for pure sailing performance, the late model fiberglass-and-lead Fin keel is best, followed by the older cast-iron Fin keel, then the Swing keel, and lastly the Wing. The Fin and Swing keels will both sail a few degrees closer to the true wind direction than will the Wing, although some skippers feel that the Wing is slightly faster downwind. Serious racers shopping for a C-25 always choose a Fin keel, preferably one of the very rare early production hulls that were built with a solid roof (non-pop-top). These weigh a little less than the pop-top boats, and to a racing fanatic, every ounce saved is, well, an ounce saved

Edited by - lcharlot on 07/01/2004 13:43:24

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 13:41:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Now the FIN keel C-25 is a different story completely. These sit MUCH higher on the trailer, and require you to use a 20' tongue extender for launch and retrieve operations.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I launched my fin keel C25 for many years without a tongue extender, and last year a friend hooked his 4WD PU truck to my trailer, backed it in and retrieved my boat without a tongue extender, no problem. With the fin keel, the 4WD is the key. You can get the trailer deep enough to launch and retrieve the boat while keeping two wheels on dry pavement, so you will have traction to pull it out.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 16:04:29

Hi Larry,
Welcome to the group. My only experience with a swing was with my Catalina 22. I really did like the ability to raise the the keel when grounded, but did hate the keel cable hum, and keel clunk.
I do like my 89 Catalina 25 wing. The first time I took her sailing I noticed the lack of cable hum right away. I don't race so a few degrees in pointing ability doesn't bother me.
Good luck in your boat search, and let us knowwhat you got.

Edited by - on

Dave Laux
Captain

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318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 21:05:38

Clam, How much does the swing keel boat sit down by the bow on the trailer? My wing keel boat is esentially waterline parallel to the trailer frame. At the axles the waterline is about 46 inches from the floor. I had our trailer built with the toungue 2 ft. longer than standard and normally we can launch with the trailer and truck ( GMC 2500 2 WD) attached. Dave

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rford
1st Mate

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USA
73 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 21:31:15

I'm a new sailer too, scarin and have to say I really like the wing keel. ClamBeach is right about the maintenance of a swing is more than for a wing. And the extra head room is very nice.

Someone else mentioned that the wings are harder to find, that's true, but I think its important to be patient when searching for a boat. Its exciting and easy to get over anxious to get one of these fine vessels... but take your time and find the boat that's right for you.

I traveled from Kentucky to Minnesota to find my wing keel. And while I had to make a lot of extra effort to get there and get it towed south, the extra time was well worth it.

Rod

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scarin
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2004 : 23:01:16

Thanks for all of your feedback. As I only own an Expedition towing capacity if a big issue for me. I am also not a pickup kind of guy (No offense to pick up owners but they do not fit my lifestyle. (not be pretentious just that who I am I think it has to do with growing up in NYC). So from a towing perspective it sounds like the swing makes sense but the wing also has distinct advantages. I will let you all know. I go to look at my first Cat 25 (to buy) in the next few days and it is a swing. So we shall see.

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triley
Captain

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USA
251 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2004 : 05:41:36

That cable hum on the swing is a little disconcerting at first. Sounds like you have turned on the engine. Exactly the opposite to the sounds of silence that you expect on a sailboat! At least it's a quiet engine, but you can't just say to the admiral " Notice how quiet it is out here, now that's why we bought the sailboat!"

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2004 : 07:15:54

Hi Scarin,

I don't understand how the tow vehicle would make a difference between a wing and a swing. They're both very large boats to tow, with the wing keel weighing I think only 350 pounds more than the swing. Big by human standards, sure, but not to the large tow vehicle you will need for the C25 swing keel. Not trying to talk you out of a swing, though. I'd still have my swing if my keel trunk hadn't been cracked.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2004 : 11:28:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rford
 
I traveled from Kentucky to Minnesota to find my wing keel. And while I had to make a lot of extra effort to get there and get it towed south, the extra time was well worth it.
Rod
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ha! I drove clear across the country, 6100 miles round trip - Sacramento CA to Deltaville VA - to buy my Catalina 25WK Mk. IV. Now THAT'S extra effort! Some of my friends thought I was nuts to drive that far to buy a boat, but they weren't Catalina 25 Mk. IV enthusiats. Heck, my WIFE thought it was going to extremes to drive that far for the boat, but I had been shopping for 4 years without finding one on the West Coast that was equipped the way I wanted, in good shape, and a price I could afford. Frank Gloss and Bruce Ebling understand!

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Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2004 : 11:38:49

I don't understand all this talk about cable hum. Just loosen up the tension and the hum goes away. Cable hum is a non-issue. The wing keel would be the way I would go if I had to do it over again, but I certainly have had a great time with my swing. No clunks, bangs, or creaks.

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Mary Ann
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 22:29:29

Larry,
Check out our 1989 Catalina 25 Wing Keel, Tall Rig, w/inboard diesel, traditional layout for sale on the Swap Meet page and photos on Catalina Owners and Boat Trader Online. It is located in Southport, NC where we sail in coastal saltwater all the time. We have enjoyed the wing keel and w/have one also on the Catalina 320 we're considering.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2004 : 18:40:16

Hey Larry,
Yes, I do understand.

Would you believe I'm responsible for someone else buying an 89 wing. My friend Roland, who met up with me the last two years in the Keys just bought his own 89 wing with a Diesel from someone on Lake Lanier down in Atlanta.
He is extremely thrilled. He has a diesel truck, diesel tractor, and knows how to work on diesels.
So I think I have helped out 3 folks now to find an 89 wing, plus my own.
Maybe my next career will be as a broker, or philanthropist, I can't decide which.

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John Ace
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2004 : 22:43:04

I love keel hum, thats my knot meter, I had a Cat 22 SK that was the same and blew away the wing, I'm sure the 25 does too, but I only have other swings to race against. But I'm concerned about the maintainence that Clam Beach talked about. I did non on my '77 22'. What should I look for?
John

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2004 : 11:23:23

STEVE STEVE STEVE

DO NOT BACK YOUR FIN KEEL IN WITH OUT EXTENCIONS.

I just paid $800 to get the rear end of my truck overhauled because of getting it too deep in the water. The axel of 4 wheel drive trucks have an opening to allow hot gasses to excape. Water gets sucked into these holes when you go too deep in the water and it will destroy them.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2004 : 12:50:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> STEVE STEVE STEVE

DO NOT BACK YOUR FIN KEEL IN WITH OUT EXTENCIONS.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">MATT MATT MATT

IT WASN'T MY 4WD TRUCK. IT BELONGED TO A FRIEND. I'VE DONE IT FOR MANY YEARS WITH MY 2WD TRUCK WITH NO PROBLEMS. MAYBE MY FRIEND'S 4WD TRUCK DOESN'T HAVE A HOLE IN THE AXLE.

Enough with the shouting already! It's giving me a headache!

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2004 : 22:17:24

not shouting just emphasiing!!!

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