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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Anchor swaying

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Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/05/2004 : 19:39:53

Ok gents et gals, help me out on this subject.

Sounds silly, but for an avid first year sailor, this little issue is becoming annoying. I've noticed this a couple of times including this weekend. When I set anchor with winds and some wave action our boat (yes, catalina 25) tends to swing back and forth at about a 45 degree angle from the anchor point. To add to the show - the bow seems to like pointing all over the place and we can easily point say 120 degrees from the anchor. Well - Im letting plenty on line out and try to keep a 5 to 1 ration - not that I use a receipe when cooking, but something like that. I watched a Catalina 30 or 36 anchored out maybe 75 yards and they were quiet as a church mouse. We on the other hand appeared to be dancing all over the floor. To make matters worse there was a Catalina 25 in front of us that also opted to sit out the music. Does having the swing keel down make a difference? I would have experimented but with the boat bobbing all over the place keeping the keel down lends to a little more stability.

So help me here - do I need to hoist up a disco ball or is there a trick I'm missing. Thanks.

Esteban

Esteban Diaz
Tally Ho!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 20:17:30

I think most any boat will veer at anchor... as determined by the wind velocity, hull shape and what's going on below the water. If the wind piped up a bit more those other boats would start probably start dancing too.

A riding sail will help... (like a tiny 'mainsail' rigged to the backstay) They are easy to make, Sailrite sells kits or you can roll your own.

Next thing you'll be looking for are some flopper-stoppers.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 20:42:13

You're experiencing a common phenomenon--sailing at the anchor. The wind catches your mast (and even the hull), and does the same thing as it does with your sails up. The pressure on your keel, as it tries to slide sideways, wants to let the boat move forward or back. The anchor rode says back is not an option, so forward it is--until it gets far enough forward that the rode has pulled the bow into the wind. Then the game starts in the other direction.

A riding sail (small triangle between the boom and topping lift) can reduce the swing by creating some "weather helm"... Another option is to rig a beach towel or other piece of fabric to the stern rail, creating a small "reverse spinnaker" that pulls the boat back against the anchor--working against the tendency to sail forward. Try it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/05/2004 20:43:21

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 20:46:57

And I've had some experienced sailing buddies tell me that some boats are just more prone to "anchor sailing" by virtue of hull design and windage factors. One of them says that Hunters are notorious for it.

Steve

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 21:01:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Lightnup
 One of them says that Hunters are notorious for it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A fractional rig, with its mast further forward, is more prone to it. And a light hull with high freeboard is, also. Hunters qualify on both points, so you can expect to "dance" on a Hunter!

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 21:33:13

you know I was wondering if a riding sail actually worked. On my last trip to the keys I was swinging a lot like a pendulum on my anchor. Of course having 15 to 20 knot winds at night may have contributed to this.
I do like the beach towel trick. Do you just hang it over the rail, or attach it to the stanchions too?

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 21:57:35

Esteban,

It's not just you or your boat. It's a common problem. Things I've tried that seem to help include:

Putting out a second anchor (each 30* to 45* off the wind in a V) so that the boat puts some tension on both anchor rodes. This works really well, but is at least twice the hassle of putting out (and retrieving) a single anchor. Since you should be carrying at least two anchors anyway, there's no significant additional cost.

Chain rode. All chain isn't practical for a C-25, but a boat length of heavy (1/4") chain, will help keep the bow in one place, especially in shallow water.

A kellet that can reach the bottom helps too, in addition to keeping the rode from wrapping around your keel and rudder. And if you've never had a rode wrapped around a keel, consider yourself blessed, but give the possibility some thought.

Swing keel up might help a little with the hunting at anchor, and almost eliminates the possibility of the rode wrapping on it.

I think tying off the tiller helps some, and needs to be done anyway to reduce wear, and prevent the noise from driving the entire crew insane during the night.

As others have mentioned, this is why riding sails were invented. I haven't tried that myself, so can't say from personal experience. Dave Bristle's suggestion of a beach towel on the stern rail sounds like a very worthwhile experiment. Try no to loose the towel if the wind picks up while you're asleep.

You might also try asking this question on the [url="http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/trailersailor/index.cgi"]TrailerSailor.com BBS[/url] and searching their archives -- it's not unique to the Catalina 25.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2004 : 22:04:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gloss
 
I do like the beach towel trick. Do you just hang it over the rail, or attach it to the stanchions too?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You want the towel, tarp, or whatever to act like a little parachute. Tie it off top and bottom. The heavier the wind, the smaller the "chute."

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 15:06:00

I took the dimensions of the Sailrite anchor riding sail and made it slightly larger. Ordered “seconds” rip stop nylon for an affordable experimental $20 sail. Tried it last season on Bear Lake as I wanted to anchor out a couple of nights, and I think it worked pretty well. We did have a 270 degree wind shift (@ 15-20knts) through the night, but the “seeking” at anchor was greatly reduced. I was surprised to find the Danforth held its ground through that much of an arc. Fair winds. Todd Frye

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Tony Dillon
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 15:30:44

Last year I whiled away an afternoon watching a group of boats at anchor hunting at anchor. The worst by far was a Macgregor 26. It quite often was at 90 degrees to all the other boats at anchor. It would make me crazy.

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 15:42:13

A lighter boat with a shallow draft will react to the wind when anchored while a heavier vessel with a deeper draft will be predominently affected by current, which is why it's important to leave plenty of distance between your boat and a power boat when you drop the hook since he will not swing in unison with you.

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 16:38:33

One thing you might want to consider is whether your anchor rode is centered on your bow. If tied off to one of the cleats to either side of the anchor locker you are setting the boat up to ride at an angle to the wind, this in turn allows the whole side of the boat to become a sail. My bow roller has helped reduce this problem for me. If you don't have a bow roller then try tying off to the trailer eye down on the bow, or make up a bridle tied off to both forward cleats with the anchor rode centered of it. Just a thought.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 18:48:39

I never found that our C25 WK did much hunting while at anchor in blows up to 25 knots, but I always used a bridle so the pull was equal on both sides. Our C250 however, even with the bridle hunts in winds as little as 15 knots, but from what info that has been put forth on the C250 threads it tends to hunt quite a bit, particularlly the WK, with the additional freeboard, without the bridle. One of my next projects is a riding sail in hopes of adding additional stability for higher winds.
You might give Aryln's web site a look since he has done a lot of testing on this subject because of the C250's prepensity to hunt in even light to moderate winds.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 19:16:07

Would the 250s with swing-up rudders be able to lock them directly back, amidships, and control some of their hunting? I guess part of the equation is whether or not they are sailing on the hook or swinging on the hook? I have always understood sailing on the hook to mean the boat can come up over and even past the anchor while swinging is done at the leeward end of the rode, at full scope length.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 07/06/2004 19:17:26

Esteban
Navigator

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139 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 20:07:53

Wow... if this isn't pretty cool, huh?

Where else can a first year sailor get this kind help. Thanks a bunch folks. I'll take away the tips on some form of a riding sail and yup - it never dawned on me to keep the anchor rode centered. I can see where tying off directly from one cleat will create a slight angle of attack if you will. Let me see what else I can have you guys help improve my seamanship. Many thanks!

Esteban

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 21:27:41

C-250 WB boats should be able to just about eliminate sailing on the anchor by raising the centerboard all the way. Then, they should just slide sideways a little. It's the keel or centerboard that translates that to forward motion toward one side or the other--just as when really sailing.

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2004 : 22:31:28

Google away on 'La Paz Waltz' and read about how the boats dance in that particular harbor.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2004 : 13:58:04

Lin & Larry Pardy had a good idea in their book Cost Conscious Cruiser: Tie a line with a rolling hitch on your anchor line and lead it back to a winch. Let out some more anchor line so the hitch is near the water. Tighten up on the winch so that the boat is cocked to one side into the wind. The extra angle of the boat into wind will reduce the hunting. Works for us on our (former) C25 and now our C34.

The La Paz waltz is, as I recollect, due to tidal surge in the harbor, exacerbated by the wind.

Stu

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 07/07/2004 13:59:23

sailgal
Captain

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USA
400 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2004 : 20:26:36

Stu, would you tie the anchor line to one side of the bow same side as the winch line, vs the center bridle type set up?

Also found this info called the Bahamian Mooring (sounds similiar to Leons idea)
http://www.pelicanpower.com/abacoguide/bahamianmoor.htm

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2004 : 12:55:01

I understand the idea behind the center bridle concept, but find that almost all boats have a somewhat offset "launchpad" for their anchors. Our C25 had the deck cleats with no anchor roller, so the anchor lead was always off to one side or the other. Our 1986 C34 has the "puny" "toy" anchor rollers (subsequently improved and beefed up on newer C34s, C30s and C36s by the factory), but ALL of these end up having the rode not "exactly" on the centerline, hence, the bridle idea. But, they're all only less than a foot off the centerline.

I just don't give the centerline concept a lot of validity, because once the boat starts "wandering," which it WILL do based on the accurate statements made above, it just doesn't matter where the heck the anchor rode leads from: left, right or middle.

So, it really doesn't matter which side or winch you use with the idea I mentioned in my post above. Since the hitch that is tied to the anchor rode ends up near the waterline (since you let the rode out a bit more after you tie the hitch to it), it doesn't matter which side the anchor line is going off the boat, NOR which side you run the line back aft. In fact, sometimes we've switched sides (winch end) and laying to starboard worked better than lying to port - the boat "behaved" better on one side than the other - could've been current or wind gusts. Whatever it was, don't be afraid to play around with it.

It would be, in my estimation and experience, absolutely unnecessary to go to the effort of rigging a center bridle AND also at the same time using the idea I cobbled from Lin & Larry's book. Think about it, why go to the effort of setting up a centerline bridle, only to yank it off to one side?

Keep it simple, try the "cocked boat" idea and see if it works. Try the center bridle (alone) and see if it works. Whatever works for you, keep using it, and let us know how it does. Sometimes various combinations of wind and current will do different things. Even from the initiator of this interesting thread, it's unclear whether the boats that weren't moving were in the same "current stream" as his boat.

Stu

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 07/08/2004 13:02:13

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2004 : 14:21:02

Another good reason to have a little bridle made up and ready to use is that many moorings have 1/2" or larger lines, which don't fit securely on the standard bow cleats on a C-25. A slightly smaller bridle through the (usually 2) loops in the mooring lines solves that. Just check the bridle periodically for chafe.

I agree that hitching a few inches off center is not the cause of sailing on the anchor. Something will get you going, and then the dance is on. The best thing to minimize it is a fully-retracted centerboard, which essntially disables the boat's ability to sail. We keel sailers (fin, swing, and wing) will find that our boats, with high freeboard and keels that can't hide, just want to dance!

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