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should we buy?

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chrisfonda
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/12/2004 : 02:37:19

I am seriously considering the purchase of either a 1982 Catalina 25, or a new ink cartridge for my ancient HP printer - both are around the same price - and I have a few questions. The boat has been in salt water its entire life (the printer has not) and it looks to be in pretty good shape - the boat that is.
What should I look for in terms of "red flag" items? I am not looking for something to sail around the world in, but I want to make sure that I don't buy the boat-version of The Money Pit. I would be using it in fresh water only, and would be really - upset - if I were constantly saying, "What a piece of @#*!, I can't believe that I 'bought' this thing!"
So, what is the standard cost of maintaining this boat in freshwater? I'm pretty handy - I once built a paper airplane with my pillow case - so I think I can handle the little things.
But, what are the big things? I just don't want my kids to be upset with me again...I really DID see Sponge Bob Square Pants at a Dead show in Canada once...I think....

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 03:02:37

I bought an 82 last fall. The trailer needed immediate attention to the tune of a $700 for new brakes, surge mechanism, and rollers. (It will hit a grand when I spring for the tires it needs.) You don't mention what keel configuration it has, there are easy swing keel maintenance items and difficult maintenance items. All boats suffer from the easy items and saltwater boats are more prone to the difficult issues. As for the basic 82 boat; it needs new halyards if you have crew and needs new halyards led back if you don't. You will probably spend a grand above deck (your standing rigging is probably suspect) and 1 to 2 grand below the water line if it needs keel work and a barrier coat. but when you are done you will have a very nice boat. Buy the catalog from catalinadirect.com and study what they sell. Choose wisely and have fun. I sense that we all spend about 10k on our boats, some at purchase and some purchase plus upgrades, it all works out.

edit; You can wander around my pages to see some typical work. They are slide shows with pictures that can be downloaded.
http://homepage.mac.com/fhopper/PhotoAlbum17.html

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 07/12/2004 03:05:31

lancej
1st Mate

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81 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 05:46:16

I'll attept to help on this one. Any boat at all = a money pit!! A C25 = a money pit. There are bigger money pits to be sure.... like a C30!!

Really though, it depends on how much you like to tinker, how paticular you are about sails in perfect condition, ect. For an example a new Main and Genoa for this boat will run you at minimum $1400, on up. How is the outboard? A new one will put you back $2000 or more.

You can find all kinds of boats for under $1000 all over the place. The cost of owning a sailboat has little to do with the purchase price of the boat. I purchased our 85 FK/SR for $5000 last year, in relly nice shape (bank repo.) It needed sails and a motor, but everything was in solid, good shape. I am now about $9,00-10,000 into it and not done yet. But I like to tinker and improve, it's a disease!

My inclination would be that any C25 for the price of a printer cartrige would be in poor shape, but I could be wrong. Have it surveyed. Fresh or salt, it all comes down to maintinance. If it was well cared for a C25 can be a dream to own, or a nightmare, regardless of initial biuld quality.

I don't want to sound negative here, so I will add that I don't regret purchasing my C25 at all! It sails great, is realativly sea worthy, somewhat fast, and there is great support for them (like this site.)

Let us know what you decide, and good luck!!

Lance
85 FK/SR

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 07:42:26

The best money you can spend is for a survey up front, if a surveyor is available. I had two surveyed before I bought and one cost 250, the other 275, plus the cost of a haulout, as neither had a trailer. The haulout cost varies depending on what competition the marina has with other marinas.

If you do buy, the second best money spent is joining this association, and buying the tech manuals.

Good luck, and let us know what you do.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 09:31:41

Cris, buy the thing if for no other reason than it's worth as material to feed you comedic ability which shows considerable promise.

Val on Calista # 3936... the twice sunk X swing keeler.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 09:54:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chrisfonda
 I am seriously considering the purchase of...a 1982 Catalina 25,...What should I look for in terms of "red flag" items?

So, what is the standard cost of maintaining this boat in freshwater?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Check out this article from the Tech Tips section of this website for tips when buying a C25.

[url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/tech/tech25/summert2.html"]Self-Apprasing a C25[/url]

As for the cost of maintaining a C25, that depends on the owner. The PO of my boat apparently didn't spend a dime so his costs were "zero" dollars per year. That was okay by me since I reaped the benefits of his neglect through a very silly purchase price.

As far as actual costs of maintaining a boat per year, it all depends on the condition of the boat, location, year round sailing, neglect, abuse, hard sailing,...and a million other things, but yearly maintenance doesn't really have to cost and arm and a leg. When non-boaters ask me if my sailboat costs me a lot to operate, I tell them, "I sail because I can't afford to golf!"

Edited by - dlucier on 07/12/2004 10:09:59

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 14:02:01

You could always get a marine survey. My most recent survey (in Dallas) was $14 a foot. www.bluewatersurveyors.com/

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 14:10:00

Chris,

I sail Hey Jude on a budget. I have lots of boat "needs", boat "wants" and boat "lusts".

For example, she needs a new mainsail, but I keep sewing up the rips (I had the luff boltrope pull away from the lower reefing point this weekend. Maintenence for next Sat.) She needs a bottom job, but I pay a diver $50 a qtr. to scrub off the few critters. I do the waterline with a stiff brush.

I want a 10kg Bruce anchor with 20 feet of chain and 200 feet of rode. But I will keep using my two Danforths.

I lust after a '82 30 foot Catalina. (Only $29,900 at last drooling.)

Think about a used 25 like a '62 chevy or a '64 VW (remember, those were the days when you could see all sides of the engine). If you are pretty handy you can fix'em, build 'em up, race 'em, or just have a hell of a time enjoying 'em with your family. (My 10 year old daughter learned to do a brake job and set timing on our '63 Baja Bug.) If you keep them for a long time you won't lose anything when you resell, if you maintain them.

I bought Hey Jude as a no-name, one owner boat that had not been maintained for 3 years, but with everything there, for $3500. A bottom job and much elbow grease later I had a little gem. My Buddy Paul got Sparky, with no sails, crummy interior, no attention in at least 6 years for $2200. Now Sparky outsails me every time. Paul patiently spent nearly every weekend for two years on inexpensive repairs and massive injections of love to bring her back.

Both Paul and me spend a day maintaining and doing upgrades for every three days we sail.

Someone else probably has a yearly maintenance schedule and budget figured out. I imagine I buy some little stuff every month worth $100 or so. Yes, when I have a catastrophic event, like a long rip in the main, I have to have it fixed. But all things considered, keep it clean, do the work yourself (like replacing all the standing rigging), love your time spent puttering around, and it is not an expensive hobby.

An example: This weekend my wife, Kirsten, a non-swimming Dane, and me sailed from Brisbane to San Rafel (20 miles) to spend the night with friends. A great sail both ways. Cost me four bucks worth of gas and $20 to tie up at a marina overnight. Nothing broke, no one got hurt.

In contrast, a 26 foot Glasspar called the Coasties yesterday on 16 to report they were a mile west of Berzerkely Marina OUT OF flippin' GAS! Can you believe it??? Four people on board, did not know how to use the GPS for LatLon, and not able to deploy their anchor. What's the chance that if they ran out of gas, they probably also did not buy a VesselAssist policy, ya think? These guys spent a heck of a lot more than I did for a lot worse day. Poor sods.

Chris, follow the advise of our brothers in the post if you choose to get yourself a Catalina 25...but, you won't be sorry to be an owner, fixer, sailor.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

PS: I spent less buying my first car than it costs to replace HP cartridges.

Edited by - jwilliams on 07/12/2004 14:11:34

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5934 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 14:49:24

Well said, Jim. A sailboat isn't an investment. It's a passion.

Edited by - on

RoofRoof
Navigator

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USA
186 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 14:54:55

2 years ago I purchased a $5,000 C25. Any more and I wouldn't be an owner today. I immediately started upgrading the entire boat, and think I have about $15,000 in it now. In hind sight, I would have been smarter to buy a newer/better boat....but $5,000 was all I was willing to spend at the time.

Now that it's all done.....we consider it FREE fun. Sailing in the afternoon or evening or night is always such a tremendous pleasure. About $1 worth of gas gets us out to the Gulf and back. Pretty much FREE enjoyment. And, the relaxation is worth it.

OK, well we spend $306 per month for a slip too. But, that's a business expense for office records storage.

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 17:20:19

I think it was Oscar Wilde who said "One large vice prevents a number of small ones."

Brooke

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 18:40:02

Office records storage.........

I like it.

Edited by - on

At Ease
Admiral

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672 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 20:03:25

Office records storage.........

Reminds me of a C25 on my dock named "Company Business." Where's the boss..."he's out on Company Business...he's a hard working guy."

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2004 : 23:28:15

B.O.A.T. -- Break Out Another Thousand.

Definition: Hole in the water, surrounded by fiberglass, into which fistfulls of money are thrown.

"The difference between men and boys is the size of their toys."

I second the marine survey comments--attend it with a clipboard and ask lots of questions. The results could give you some leverage with the price, or it could point out that you should look for a better C-25. But in the desirable case, it will give you a realistic priority list for things to attend to--must dos, should dos, and want-to-dos.

Salt water is mostly an issue with swing keels, which rely on a stainless steel cable attached and its attachment to the 1500 lb. hunk of cast iron and a winch in the cabin. In fresh water, it becomes less vulnerable, but must be inspected periodically in any case. The problem has to do with the keel doing an unintended free-fall from the up position, which can end by crunching the forward end of the trunk and sinking the boat. With the fin or wing keel, about the only things vulnerable to salt water are the stays at the lower terminals (if original, they should be replaced) and the exterior electrical connections (indluding running lights).

Some other areas to examine: The chainplates and their mountings inside the cabin--especially the uppers, which attach to the plywood bulkheads, which can rot if water has intruded where the chainplates go through the deck. The spreader bases attached to the mast should be welded stainless steel--not cast aluminum. A surveyor will check for moisture in the plywood deck core and cabin top, and the integrity of the rudder blade, pintles, and gudgeons, among many other things.

I don't want to scare you away--just to help you to have some realistic expectations. On an older boat, there will be things you need to attend to, and the bigger the boat, the more important and expensive they become. Generally, with some attention to a few key items, an '82 C-25 can be a very safe, sound boat. Catalina Direct's C-25 Handbook gives you ideas on how to make it better, as will this organization.

And Chris: That wasn't Bob... But we understand.

Good luck!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/12/2004 23:30:03

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 08:28:50

In my experience with two different Catalina 25's - a 1979 and a 1989 that is my current boat - I have ended up spending several thousand dollars within the first three years of ownership for repairs and upgrades. Whenever you buy a used sailboat, especially one more than 15 years ols as were both of mine when I nought them, you are likely to find that certain key components are worn out and need replacement. These include the standing rigging= $550 for the complete set of 8 shrouds, a new main and headsail= $1600, new battery= $70, new VHF radio and antenna=$300, new keel winch & cable (for swing keel only)= $200, new interior upholstery (12 cushions, foam and fabric)= $1100, new galley sink pump and new water hoses= $100, and the list goes on and on. I bought my 1989 C-25WK last September for $6500 and have already spent almost that much more on upgrades and replacement, including sails, a new outboard motor, new VHF radio, new GPS and depth sounder, new standing and running rigging, new stereo (boat didn't have one at all), and dozens of other small items. Fortunately, the upholstery is in decent condition and was not mildewy, so I didn't have the $1100 expense of replacing the cushions. If you are looking at a Catalina 25 being offered for less than $100 (the price of a printer cartridge in your words), be on the lookout for some serious, expensive, problems. You had certainly best get a professional marine surveyor to look at the boat to make sure there are no structural damages that could be catastrophically expensive to repair. Good luck!

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 14:07:27

When ever I hear those comments "BOAT = Break Out Another Thousand" or "hole in the water surrounded by fiberglass into which you pour money" or "sailing - the fine art of slowly going nowhere while getting wet and ill" I have to throw in my favorite.

"I spent 1/2 of the money I ever earned in all my life on women and boats...............the rest I wasted!"

I love my well maintained 1978 C25, I bought her for $6000, I work on her all the time, I sail every day. If you don't love boat work, don't get a boat. If you can't be happy going 5 knots slightly away from your destination, don't get a sailboat.

I figure that taking a sack lunch to work EVERY DAY pays for my monthly C25 boat expenses.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 15:26:51

"If you don't love boat work, don't get a boat.

If you can't be happy going 5 knots slightly
away from your destination, don't get a sailboat"

Lotta truth in those two sentences... sums it up very nicely.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2004 : 16:06:13

You can get there faster on a power boat...
On a sailboat, you're already there.

Edited by - on

kenz
Deckhand

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USA
18 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 07:41:50

I have a 1981 Catalina 25. Forget about the printer and go for the boat. I have my boat for six years and every year I have to fix something or repace something. This year I bought a new main sail and had to fix the Knot meter. But my friend it is worth it.

When I bought the boat(Whispering Wind) I perchased a new VHF radio. Saturday I came back to the my marina and called for a pick up. I got no answer because they heard me, but I did not hear them. I guess I have to fix the radio or replace it. But my friend it is worth it.

Ken

Edited by - on

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 09:23:31

My theory is that all human beings have an inherent need to throw away money. If you don't throw it away on a sailboat, you'll throw it away on something less interesting.

Since I bought my boat, I hardly ever go to the mall. I haven't bought a new pair of shoes in two years(except two pairs of boat shoes:)

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 11:13:54

"Since I bought my boat, I hardly ever go to the mall."

What's a mall ? ;>)

Edited by - on

Lightnup
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1016 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 12:02:09

Yeah, I don't go to the mall either. But the number of BoatUS and West Marine entries on my Mastercard bill make up for any mall trips. It's amazing how all those, "Oh, it's only $20 and then I won't need anything else for the boat" purchases add up over a month's time.

Steve

Edited by - on

jwilliams
Captain

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USA
357 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 15:57:47

Ain't a mall like a big hammer you use to drive out the clevis pins?

The last time I went shopping it was because I forgot to bring boat clothes to the office. Fully equipped from K-Mart, shirt, shorts, flip-flops...$24.95. Keep'em in the back of the car, cause my wife won't let them in the house.

Jim Williams
Hey Jude C25fk 2958
SF Bay

Edited by - on

Keith Dennis
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 16:15:43

I was in the same shoes you were in a few weeks ago. I just purchased an '83 for $4200, complete with air conditioning. I had it surveyed and the hull is sound and all major systems are in good condition. The surveyor appraised the fair market value at $6600. So I am very happy with the value now that I will be refitting her over the next ?? years. We are moving her from her slip in Deltaville to our slip above Solomons next weekend. I can't wait to shake her out and see what other things to add to the list. These are great boats and I am thankful for all of the helpful advice I can get here. Happy sailing.

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 18:17:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What's a mall? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you are married and have kids, it's that thing which creates that giant sucking sound you hear from your checking account when you pay your credit card bill each month.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2004 : 21:09:56

When my friends ask me how much I spend on my boat each year for maintenance, insurance, slip fees,........ I tell them I don't know. It's the truth 'cause I really don't keep track since it probably intrude on the fun of it all.

Edited by - on

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