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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Why no C25s 1990-95

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Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/30/2004 : 08:46:25

I've been told by a Catalina Dealer that the 250 came out in 95. We are looking for a C25 and the newest C25 we see is '89. What gives? Did they not make anything those years ('90-'95) or are they such good boats nobody gets rid of them?

Scooter
C25 '89 SR/WK #5878 "Square Knot"
Vandemere NC.

Edited by - on

frankr
Captain

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256 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 10:17:31

The person that Vic feels is the best (non factory) "expert" on this subject is Arlyn Stewart. The following is what Arlyn says (Arlyn has given us written permission to quote him):

"First, Catalina C25's were produced between about '68 thru '91. Catalina's 25 foot offering then was redesigned to the C250 in '94. The first 230 were built as water ballast and then the wing was released. Some bias existed early on about water ballast... however, the criteria for a decision between them is trailerability... The water ballast boat was designed for ease of hauling, launch and retrieve. Other wise, the wing version has less compromises... it offers more head room, easier access to the aft berth and less maintenance issues relative to the center board. The wing version will trailer... but not as easy......

Wing C25's were first produced in the mid '80s in response to a need for a shoal draft that got away from the heavy swing keel that had shown some design shortcomings. The C25 however was discontinued in '91 when sales continued to be very soft for the model... The problem was two fold, yacht sales were off and the market was full of good used boats.

New sales would have to hit a niche that wasn't available in used boats... and Catalina followed MacGregor in producing a water ballast 25 footer, the C250 designed specifically for easy trailering but with some big boat feel.

This boat was released in '94 and its first offerings were '95 models. They geared production up fairly strong with many dealers taking shipments and produced better than 200 boats in '95. Handling problems due mostly to rudder issues were often blamed on water ballast. Some soothsayers argued that water was not a worthy ballast material, others scoffed at the divergence in design such as no exterior teak, etc. The boat was literally picked almost to its death, with almost every innovative aspect challenged. One such was the open transom... salty sailors echoed over and over again they wouldn't be caught dead with an open transom. Others scoffed it’s modern lines. ....

See this link for the more of the story http://www.plumbingsupply.com/vic-sailing.html

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 15:13:27

A few years ago, I had the real pleasure of sitting in Frank Butler's office at the Catalina Yachts factory in Woodland Hills, CA. I was trying hard to convince him to reintroduce the C25 into the line. Maybe with a few changes like a walk through transom and flaired hull to give wider side decks. He said that it would not happen - that the earthquake 6 months or so earlier had started a fire at the factory and all the forms for the C25 had been destroyed. It would be simply to expensive to recreate the forms for the limited sales he envisioned.

I asked why he decided to switch to the C250. He said that from 1990 thru 1993 he had not received an order for a single C25 from any of the dealers throughout the U.S. You may remember this period.....Gulf War, recession (undeclared) and a luxury tax on sailboats had really stifled the economy across the country. At the same time - as Arlyn rightly states - there was a lot of pressure from McGregor and Hunter with their 24 to 26 footers with water balast. Many dealers were saying that they were getting killed by the competition. So, there was a feeling at the factory offices that perhaps a new 25' water balast boat would be the solution. The new C250 was introduced.

Hence your dilemma trying to find a C25 newer than a 1989 model.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 15:28:18

89 is the newest official year, buy one. The 25 became too expensive to produce and sell to the target market. The move to the wing was a response to the market, there is nothing wrong with the swing design. The Capri 26 could have been the answer but the market was too soft, it failed. They came back with a much cheaper boat to regain traction in the target market. It now is over priced for what you get. It is easy to buy a used Catalina 30 for around half what new 250s sell for. Used boats own the target market. Bless the people who do buy the 250s they are our used boats of the future.

Edited by - on

oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 17:02:23

Frank, you may have stirred up a hornet's nest with your reply but I think it's right on the mark.

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frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 21:40:59

Sure hope Frank is corrected in his prediction. One of these days they will enlarge the bridge into our home lake and I will need to sell in order to get a bigger boat.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2004 : 22:23:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 It (C-250) now is over priced for what you get. It is easy to buy a used Catalina 30 for around half what new 250s sell for. Used boats own the target market.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's comparing apples and orange Volkswagons... A used C-30 of equivalent vintage to any particular C-250 is predictably higher. You might be able get a nice, older C-30 for a little less than a new C-250, but the same can be said about all boats, and the C-30 will likely be due for some $ignificant investment$ (such as repowering). A new C-250 is a LOT less than a Com-Pac 25, and very competitive with the cheesier Hunters on both sides of its size. BTW: Ever tried trailering a C-30?

Most boats bought new will take a big loss if sold within a few years--making good buys. Most sailboats bought used will hold their value much better. But some people like new boats, and some can't find the right used one.

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2004 : 00:12:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fhopper@mac.com
 Used boats own the target market.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank makes a serious point here. The C-250 has been in production for 10 years, and I don't believe the total number built has passed 2500 yet, has it? (I could be way off - Our resident 250 guru (Arlyn) may have an accurate number). Anyway, in the first 10 years of Catalina 25 production, 1977-87, around 5700 boats were built. Out at Folsom Lake Marina, which is primarily a sailboat facility, almost all of the boats are at least 14 years old. Catalina 22's and 25's are the most prevalent sailboats, with a scattering of other makes and models from every other manufacturer who ever made trailerable sailboats (too many different ones to list here). But hardly any of them are really new. There are a few Catalina 250's and Catalina 22 Mk. II's that were built after 1990, but these probably represent less than 5% of the fleet at the marina. I have a feeling that new trailerable sailboats in general have just become too expensive. A new Catalina 22 Mk. II with a trailer and 5 hp outboard is around $24000, and the 250WK is $34000. Who wants to part with that kind of money when there are lots of 1987-1990 C-22's for under $6000, that offer a nicer interior with a built in galley, that is lacking in the MK. II? And as for the 250, a new one costs 3 times as much as a Catalina 25 Mk. III or IV. Of course, I'll admit this isn't really a fair comparison, as the C-250 and C-25 are so different in design, but if you limit the discussion to "how much boat can I get for my dollar", brand new boats have a tough time competing with 15 year old boats that have been cared for and have an asking price under $10000. Sadly, it seems that almost all young couples shopping for a boat in Sacramento nowadays are buying powerboats, whereas in the 1970's and early 80's, there was a strong demand for the Catalina 22 and 25, and the dealer here sold a lot of them, as you can tell from how many are still occupying slips at Folsom Lake Marina. The average age of the members in my sailing club is approaching 50, if not already past it, and I can't remember when we last had any young people (under 30) join up. Our monthly meetings could easily be mistaken for AARP meetings

Edited by - lcharlot on 07/31/2004 00:17:19

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2004 : 00:41:22

Larry makes a good point. It's been said that the sailboat industry is a victim of it's own success.. in building boats that last 30 years or more.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5936 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2004 : 09:21:42

A new boat is a good value if you intend to keep it long enough to amortize it. When I bought my new C25, in 1981, I knew I would keep it for as long as I remain at Brookville Lake, because it was the right size for the lake. After 23 years, the per year cost is nominal, and, for all these years, my maintenance costs have been nominal, because I started with a new boat. If you only plan to keep a boat for 4-5 years before selling or trading up, then a nice used boat makes more sense.

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2004 : 09:57:45

the nice thing about all of this discussion of used C25's, 250's, used C30's, wing, water ballast, etc.....

We all get to buy what we want.

Isn't this fun?

And we all get to have Catalinas, not some other boat.

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2004 : 12:06:44

I know. While going through the decision making of which to buy. So far Catalina is the only choice for us. The info lcharlot sent us was very helpful (thanks) and we are still gathering data.

Now just finding what we want within transport distance...

Yes this is part of the fun but can't wait to get "our" hull wet.

We were sold on swing but may be changing to wing. Thing is though that in NC, 2 inches is precious. Also weighs bit less. Still hashing that one over.

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Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2004 : 09:14:43

Catalina Yacjhts have been OUR CHOICE for 2 boats Now. I highly recommend them. BUT while you are looking, Sail with others and than sail Catalina you will probably be as amazed as we were at the difference not only sailing but the quality of craftsmanship. A friend of ours did not take our advice and bought a Rhodes 22 sightunseen after sailing our Catalina 22 when we owned that and he has had nothing but trouble and has not taken the boat out but twice this summer. We also have friends that are diehard Oday owners..Now they are shopping for a Catalina 25! You have to drive a Volkswagon to appreciate a Mercedes!

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