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wing and wing

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/04/2004 : 11:49:50

Say you're sailing downwind wing and wing, headed straight for the bottom mark. You have the main out all the way, and the genoa is held out by a whisker pole. The wind is 20 degrees off the stern to starboard. Which side should have the main and which side should have the genoa? Last night, the fleet (non-spin) was split evenly.

Also, which way should the boat heel? To windward or to leeward?

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

Edited by - on

Jared
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 12:14:44

I would think that if you had the wind to starboard then you would bring the main around to starboard and sail by the lee. That would put the genoa on the port side where it would normally be. Maybe some folks put the main on the other side to try to prevent an accidental gybe? We just use a preventer to keep the boom by the lee. I would also think that you wouldn't get or want much heal if you were sailing close to downwind. I don't race my boat but crew for someone else but am still learning, so don't take my word for it. Anyone else have any other insight? If it was half and half in the race, I guess the most important question is - who was faster?

Edited by - on

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 13:51:52

I don't race (yet) but if you were just fun sailing it probably wouldn't make that much difference. Logic tho for racing would seem
that you would want the genoa poled out to port if you were going to
round a mark to starboard and visa versa. Therefore, the main set up would be determined by that. Then when you round the mark you just gybe the main and release the pole. Otherwise you got someone doing a dance on the foredeck.

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 16:24:16

I have the boom to port whenever possible to protect my rights since it is the mainboom that determines port/starboard.

That said - if there's no immediate company I'm worried about, I find that if the wind is from starboard at 160 degrees (20 degress from aft) I get the best boat speed with the main on the portside and the gennoa poled out to starboard and the pole allowed to come forward off the lower shroud a bit. If the wind were from the port quarter I'd set up with boom off to starboard and gennoa on the portside and jibe the main when I needed to get rights.

jwa

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2004 : 19:03:19

" it is the mainboom that determines port/starboard"
Unfortunately, this is a common fallacy. It is the side of the boat that the wind is crossing first that determines which tack (or jibe) you are sailing.
If the boom is out to port and you are sailing by the lee you are on port tack.
The fastest downwind sail, when the wind is 20 degrees off the port transom, is to have the main out to starboars and the genoa poled out to port.
Derek

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 08:52:34

I saw a post on a North Sails website that answers my original question and agrees with what is said here. It's best to have the main off to port if the wind is slightly to starboard. The explanation I got is that the main spills wind onto the genoa, powering up both sails.

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 09:33:00

Derek - you're correct, of course, but have you sucessfully defended a protest (or prosecuted one) with the boom by the lee? When I used to race 420's - which I did much more seriously than I race my C25, but only only marginally more sucess <g> - we learned early that unless you jibed the main you were going to have a really hard time proving your point. I haven't had the experience in this boat since by the time we're on the run everyone else is long gone and we stuck racing the clock.

Justin

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 09:38:06

I have to agree with Justin. There are times when right of way is momentarily more important than speed. When I see a situation shaping up ahead of me, I will often jibe the boom to port (starboard tack) to establish superior right of way, even though my boatspeed might drop very slightly. Then I'll hail "starboard," and after he yields to me, I'll jibe the boom back onto the faster tack.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 10:37:53

"I will often jibe the boom to port (starboard tack) to establish superior right of way"
And with all due respect Steve, if the wind is still coming over the port side you are still on port tack and have only leeward/windward ROW. If you have hailed "starboard" you have broken the "fair sailing" rule and are subject to DND (disqualification, not discardable) by the RC. And on Canyon Lake the red flags would fly!
And I have successfully had this one upheld in the protest room.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 10:51:33

Derek, I would be very interested in reading a copy of your local decision on the subject. I believe what you are talking about is very fact-sensitive.

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 11:59:33

OK - this is from the ISAF defintions page. The link is ugly but if you go to the isaf page and look to the definitions page under the 2000-2004 rules section, you'll find it. (Wouldn't it be nice if you could cite like that in pleadings, Steve? Ah, Judge, third book from the left on the top shelf behind my desk, on the inside cover I think it says . . .)[Also, gotta lobby Westlaw to index ISAF cases]

Leeward and Windward
A boat's leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.

Edited by - takokichi on 08/05/2004 12:00:28

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 12:05:09

Incidentally, I wonder if an earlier version of the rules did not include the clause, "However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lie," because I remember learning that the controlling factor is the side of the hull the wind comes from - I thought the mainsail thing was evidentiary. Presumably if you're by the lee you're close to DDW and it would be hard to prove angle of wind to the boat.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 18:13:14

Steve - sorry I don't have a copy of that protest. It was a couple of years ago and we don't keep protest results past year's end.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fact sensitive". To me it makes perfect logical sense to realize that if a competitor and I are sailing in the same direction, with the wind over the corner of our port transoms and he suddenly throws over his boom to port and in the absence of a sizeable wind shift,yells "starboard" WITHOUT CHANGING HIS HEADING,then he is lying.
For clarification of the port/starboard tack rule, go to "Definitions" in the rule book. I would wager that you can ask 100 sailors (or racers) how to determine port or starboard tacks and at least 90 would give you the wrong explanation (i.e. they would say "the boom", "not the wind")
Lastly, sailing by the lee is probably even slower than dead downwind. Try it sometime and keep a close watch on your knotmeter.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 20:53:09

Now that's what I mean by "fact sensitive." I was thinking of different situations from what you described. In particular, I was thinking about running dead downwind, which, as you know I often do because it's often the fastest way to get from point A to point B. (I only said that because I know it annoys you.

)When running dead downwind, you can carry the boom on either side of the boat, especially if you are willing to bear off a couple of degrees in either direction. If I have an essentially equal choice of the side on which I will carry the mainsail, you can bet I'll carry it on the side that gives me right of way, and there's nothing unfair about that.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 22:46:26

"running dead downwind, which, as you know I often do because it's often the fastest way to get from point A to point B. (I only said that because I know it annoys you"
It doesn't annoy me Steve - I just think you are very wrong. I told my "A" crew about your insistence on this - my foredeck guy has raced for over 30 years, my genoa trimmer teaches sailing at Annapolis - and they both burst out laughing and said "when do we get to race him"!!!

Derek

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2004 : 23:15:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Lastly, sailing by the lee is probably even slower than dead downwind. Try it sometime and keep a close watch on your knotmeter.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you, Derek! I'm not a racer, so all the argument about whether the wind or boom determine right of way is meaningless to me. However, with the wind over my starboard quarter, I can't imagine why it would be more efficient to have my boom to starboard and whisker pole to port. I would want the maximum exposure of sail to the wind, and I don't understand how sailing by the lee would create that.

Brooke

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Jared
1st Mate

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USA
70 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 08:10:50

Just a question... If running downwind with the wind slightly off one side of the boat is not a good time to sail by the lee, when is? Is sailing by the lee just one of those sailing language things for "I'm screwing up and everyone had better watch there skulls here until I unscrew up?" Or is there some other time where this may be beneficial? I thought that if I try to leave the main as is and pole out the genoa, it may try to backwind itself? I'll have to try it out this weekend.

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takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 09:05:23

Derek - I don't mean to hammer this to be rude, but according to the current rules Port/Starboard IS determined by the boom, at least when you're dead down wind or by the lee.

jwa

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 10:05:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by takokichi
 Derek - I don't mean to hammer this to be rude, but according to the current rules Port/Starboard IS determined by the boom, at least when you're dead down wind or by the lee.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If so, is throwing the boom to windward in order to temporarily establish ROW within the rules? And also, if the boom determines windward/leeward position, then both boats can be to windward or to leeward of each other!

You racers...

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2004 : 10:32:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">" it is the mainboom that determines port/starboard"
Unfortunately, this is a common fallacy. It is the side of the boat that the wind is crossing first that determines which tack (or jibe) you are sailing.”<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Derek, when sailing either directly downwind, or by the lee, the position of the main boom determines whether the boat is on port or starboard tack. It is not a “common fallacy.” That’s the rule. Let’s look at the definition of “Leeward and Windward,” as provided by the current version of the racing rules.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">“Leeward and Windward
A boat's leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.”<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Now, let’s look at the definition of “Tack, Starboard or Port.”

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">“Tack, Starboard or Port. A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side.”<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Now, let’s combine those two definitions. A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side, and, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her windward side is the side opposite the side on which her mainsail lies. Clearly, in this fact situation, the rule says that the position of the boom, and not the direction of the wind, determines the tack. That’s not a fallacy. It’s the rule.

I would be very interested in seeing a copy of an authoritative decision (not just a local club decision), that holds that it is “unfair” to sail a boat in a manner that is expressly contemplated and authorized by the rules, or that it is unfair to use a rule to your advantage. We all do that every time we try to achieve an inside overlap as we approach a mark of the course. We use right-of-way to our advantage when we squeeze a barger out at the start. We use right-of-way to our advantage when we lee bow or slam dunk another boat. There’s nothing unfair about that.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If running downwind with the wind slightly off one side of the boat is not a good time to sail by the lee, when is?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Jared, while it is true that sailing by the lee is not fast, there are occasionally good reasons to do it. If you are sailing by the lee with the boom on the port side, you are a starboard tack boat, with right of way over a port tack boat. You will also have right of way over a windward boat. That puts you in a strong posture to maneuver as you approach the downwind mark.

I also agree with Derek that sailing dead downwind, or nearly so, is not fast, but it can sometimes get you to a given destination, or to the finish line, in the shortest period of time. Sailboat racing is not essentially a contest of speed. It is a contest of time. Regardless of how fast a boat might go at any point along the way, the winner will be the boat that gets to the finish line in the shortest amount of time. You certainly want to maximize your speed, but I will happily go slower on occasion, if I can shorten my elapsed time to a mark or to the finish line.

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