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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

swing performance up/down

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pierrem
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/29/2004 : 17:30:08

What is the forums experience as it relates to swing keel performance up or down. Since I single hand mostly. I tend to keep the keel up. of course works great down wind....upwind of course seems to point better with keel down.

However I noticed a more balanced helm with it down.

your thoughts? thanks

Pierre

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2004 : 17:52:58

The consensus is that the C25 keel should be kept down at all times, except when the shallowness of the water demands otherwise. The C25 is not like a centerboard racing dinghy, where the board is raised for running, is halfway down for a beam reach, and all the way down for close hauled.

I think you'll find the keel down makes the boat much stiffer (less tippy), especially when the wind picks up. You'll also have less leeway on the wind, the boat will track better, and, as you've already discovered, less weather helm. The boat was designed to sail with the keel down, and for the keel only to be raised to get in and out of the shallows. That's why it's a keel, not a centerboard.

Brooke (C25 #5050, 1985 SKTR)

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 08/29/2004 17:57:04

Waterboy
Navigator

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USA
204 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 01:04:04

pierrem - I've wondered the same thing, and would ask the same question of the forum.

You don't say whether you sail a 25 or a 250. I've an older WB250. It's my understanding that both 25's and WB250's are swing keels, the difference being the 25's have a significantly weighted keel, while the 250's keel ballast is insignificant compared to the full water ballast tank.

As such, I suspect the difference between up and down is much more significant with a 25 than a 250. When I've forgotten to lower the keel, I have noticed the boat didn't point as well, but there was no obvious increase in 'tenderness' ... this was in 10-15 kt winds that were not gusty. I noticed little if any difference on other points of sail (but I am not a greatly experienced sailor). What do you mean by 'a more balanced helm'?

Greg
C250 'Sabrosa'

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 09:56:43

The keel should be down when sailing... part of the structural design of the keel system is the extension of the keel 'head' into the hull slot. This should have a nice a'hand-in-glove' fit to stabilize it the keel-hull system.

With the keel in the up position, it's kinda 'hanging around' in the keel trunk with the only lateral support being provided by the hinge pin and bolts.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 10:07:32

Brooke is right. The C25 swing keel should be kept down. Generally, the swing keel performs as well or better than the fin keel, but it has one drawback. If the winch mechanism fails while the keel is cranked up, it will fall suddenly and can do serious damage to the boat. By keeping it down, you avoid that possibility.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What do you mean by 'a more balanced helm'?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">This refers to the amount of pressure that you feel in the tiller. A boat with too much weather helm will require a strong hand on the tiller, to hold the boat on a straight course. That is not only tiring, but it also creates drag and slows the boat. In order to create a reasonably balanced helm, a boat designer has to locate the mast, keel and rudder just so, relative to each other. Raising the keel changes the relationship between the keel and the mast, and disrupts the balance between them.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/30/2004 10:17:21

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 10:32:29

I also believe that in sanctioned c25 racing events the keel must be kept down, unless the thin water makes it necessary to raise it.

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pierrem
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 13:09:20

I have a 84 tall rig. I keep it at my house but the water is shallow and I have to keep the keel up at the dock and for about 1 mile thru the channel. I saw a 27 watkins with his crew on the boom out the port side so he would heel in order to get into the lake.

Since I sail almost every day ...sometimes for just an hour. I dont lower the keel...

I need to get a tiller tamer so that I am better able to lower the keel while sailing. I hate waiting to get into deep water ...lower the keel...raise the sails. I prefer to raise the sails as soon as I can.

Pierre

Edited by - on

Charlie Vick
Captain

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USA
423 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 13:49:50

I left the keel up sailing one day, not on purpose, in a fairly stiff breeze and as soon as I heeled far enough to put the port jib winch in the water I knew something was wrong.
Needless to say I never sail with the keel up anymore.
I will raise it to get off the bottom if I have to but it immediatly goes back down.
IMHO If you're motoring, a bungee cord around the tiller should give you enough time to lower the keel and get back to the helm unless your in very close quarters just outside your channel.

CVick
PanaceaII "81 C25 #2439 SRSK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 15:19:09

The 250 is not a swing keel, it is a centerboard.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 18:15:33

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">can do serious damage to the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes, like take out the trunk and sink in less than a minute.....

Frank is right. A keel is weighted, the 250 board is not a counter balance device, just a foil.

Oscar
C42 # 76 "Lady Kay"
C250 # 618 Good Survey, awaiting closing.
http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/C250WB

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2004 : 18:50:02

One mile through the channel is nothing, really. I keep my keel up at the dock, run the motor for about ten minutes ( a mile or so) to get out of the harbor and into the Rappahannock, and then lower the keel to sail. I highly recommend buying and installing a tiller pilot so you can take all the time you need to raise or lower the keel, raise or lower sails, use the head, get a drink, or anything else. It's almost a necessity if you're going to singlehand. Tiller tamers help, but they won't keep you on course for very long. As the boat shifts balance, the wind puffs and lulls, and you encounter waves and currents, the autopilot corrects.

You'll enjoy sailing a whole lot more with a lowered keel and an autopilot -- even for an hour.

Brooke

Edited by - Brooke Willson on 08/31/2004 11:57:13

Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 11:14:42

I have previously noted that my boat is noticably faster downwind with the keel up. Our race course on the Potomac includes a navigation buoy that marks the edge of the channel. Around the back, it's about 3 and a half feet deep, so I have to bring the keel up to make the rounding. I think it's only fair to pull it up the whole downwind leg.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 11:19:56

I agree with Brooke. I have an autohelm for those situations when I need to leave the tiller and do something - raise sails, use the potty, adjust sails, start the ob, etc. It is comforting to set the tiller and be able to be away from the helm for awhile.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2004 : 15:55:47

"I have previously noted that my boat is noticably faster downwind with the keel up."
Bruce - that's why in the Nationals, and on Canyon Lake (that's an incongruous coupling!) all swing keels have to be down all the time. The swinger is faster to the weather mark (points better, less leeway and tacks quicker) but the fixed keel is faster downwind. That's why they carry the same rating. IMHO I feel that cranking up the keel while racing violates the "shifting ballast, adjusting stability rule".
Derek

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