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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/09/2004 : 12:11:15

In Race 1 of Wurstfest Regatta for the PHRF Fleet, the RC posted a course, started the sequence and then postponed while they moved a mark. During the postpone they changed the course (without hoisting "Lima"). After the restart, 5 of the 11 boats sailed the original course. The RC gave them finishing times as though they had run the correct course!
5 boats protested the RC and at the protest meeting the protest committee gave those who sailed the wrong course the average of their scores in Races 2 & 3.
The next morning, one of the National Champions present (not in the same fleet) told the protest committee that if they didn't change their decision he would protest the Regatta results. So the PC threw out the whole race...
What's you racer's opinion on all this?
Derek

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2004 : 13:25:21

I am not a PRO.
I think it should have been thrown out, most sailing instructions state that one race constitutes a regatta. Therefore there would be no compelling reason to "save" the race results. When a committee screws up like that the only fair thing is to throw the race out.

Oh, and they ought to have to swim to shore!

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2004 : 13:55:07

Derek,
I certainly don’t consider myself a “pro” but I have raced on a few well funded programs.
The short answer is the RC screwed up and there is little they can do to remedy their mistake.
You wrote;
“…the RC posted a course, started the sequence and then postponed while they moved a mark.”
If they “moved” a mark how did the fleet get confused between the courses? You seem to say that there were two sets of marks out.
Anyway the RC was under the obligation to notify the fleet of a course change no later than the warning signal.
The following is from the [url="http://www.sailing.org/"]International Sailing Federation [/url] [url="http://www.sailing.org/menu.asp?MenuID=d6v0GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12`?"] , Racing Rules 2001-2004[/url] , [url="http://www.sailing.org/page.asp?PageID=j/lFh`Bk&MenuID=o/v/GXks5BsOe9?7vTvOOQY12`?caLWFIZI?m?GXdrEijX"]Part 3 [/url] Conduct of a Race, Section 27, “OTHER RACE COMMITTEE ACTIONS BEFORE THE STARTING SIGNAL”.

27.1 No later than the warning signal, the race committee shall signal or otherwise designate the course to be sailed if the sailing instructions have not stated the course, and it may replace one course signal with another…

It sounds like they didn’t do that and race should be resailed or just thrown out.
It is somewhat of a judgment call but I don’t see how anything else can be fair to the entire fleet and the overall standings in the regatta.

Underlined words are a HOT link.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2004 : 14:44:51

John - no it wasn't the Flying Scots, they raced the weekend before us. It was the keelboat PHRF fleet.
Derek

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2004 : 16:20:11

Jeeps, I'm glad we're a little more casual about racing in our club. Although a number of our members race in Lake Superior Yachting Association races and sail some hot boats, we tend to look at our local club races as a chance to get on the water with friends and have fun. I don't think we've had a protest in the 12 years I've been a member. Although we are all familiar with the race rules, none of us really sails on the edge of them, thus, no protests of any consequence. Those that occur are amicably worked out by skippers between races or at the picnic afterward. We do take our racing seriously, just not to the point of losing good friends, damaging boats, not having fun, etc. In our club we would have tossed out the bad race and had a beer and good laugh over the incident.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2004 : 16:36:37

Al - that's what we would probably have done in our regular Club races. However, this was a major regatta with racers coming from all over Texas (including a fleet of C22's including 4 skippers with 10 Natl. Championships between them) - really serious racing and a heck of a lot of fun!

Derek

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 08:12:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 In Race 1 of Wurstfest Regatta for the PHRF Fleet, the RC posted a course, started the sequence and then postponed while they moved a mark. During the postpone they changed the course (without hoisting "Lima"). After the restart, 5 of the 11 boats sailed the original course. The RC gave them finishing times as though they had run the correct course!
5 boats protested the RC and at the protest meeting the protest committee gave those who sailed the wrong course the average of their scores in Races 2 & 3.
The next morning, one of the National Champions present (not in the same fleet) told the protest committee that if they didn't change their decision he would protest the Regatta results. So the PC threw out the whole race...
What's you racer's opinion on all this?
Derek
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was 1 race short of having the regional PRO sign off on my certification, but I did ace the exam and stay in a Holiday INN last year.

Since the race was not started initially due to postponement, The course wasn’t changed. The course must be indicated no later than the preparatory signal, and it sounds like because of postponement this was done. A Lima flag is by no means warranted, nor would a Charlie flag.

Those boats initially protested should have been DQ’ed because of sailing the wrong course. Because the Protest Committee decided to give them the average of their scores, any boat that might be affected by the ruling of the committee has 24 hours (this used to be a prescription of US Sailing, but can’t find it) to appeal. So if there was an overall score, there was a right of the protest committee to hear valid “gripes.”

At this point, it moves things beyond my skills as a 1 hour short PRO. A protest committee member or judge would be more qualified to answer this question. For the sake of the forum, I’ll take a crack at it.

This can second day complaint can only be done in the form of redress. That is to say, the guy crying in his breakfast cereal the next morning could have his position adjusted based on the ruling or as it seems could appeal the decision, only if he was one of the original 5 protestors.

Upon appeal, the boats that went the wrong way would have been tossed out. The decision of your committee to throw out the race is Back Peddling for a improper protest committee finding.

dw

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 08:49:33

I enjoy serving as our clubs race committee on the occasions that I volunteer to do the job. Our role is primarily start countdown, policing the start, and keeping time. I don't think anyone has had to make a decison involving the race itself.

A related situation durig our club races, and these normally only have about 6 to 18 boats in them, is communications. Many of our members boats do not have radios. The Committee, which is not provided with a bull horn, must therefore rely on shouting to get the course to all the skippers. Not very reliable, but in a small fleet not a real problem. How is this accomplished in a "pro" regatta? Could this have been a factor in part of the fleet sailing the wrong course? How would this have effected the committee decision?

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 09:23:26

"The Committee, which is not provided with a bull horn, must therefore rely on shouting to get the course to all the skippers"

For $10 you can get a fair sized whiteboard and some 'wipe off' markers... Hold or tie the board up with the course number(s) written on it. Beats yelling. Most skippers carry binoculars or soon learn to do so.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 10:57:23

How is this accomplished in a "pro" regatta?

Most regatta's, professional or otherwise, use a white board as mentioned above, or premade course indicators (large premade cards and numbers), or some other kind of sign. Some also indicate courses via signal flag. The White board or other sign is the most common.

The rules specifically state that this must be signalled or otherwise designate. This becomes difficult without visual means to do so.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Could this have been a factor in part of the fleet sailing the wrong course? How would this have effected the committee decision?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The rules are big on visual signals, for example the lowering of a flag is the official start of the race, a gun or horn is just secondary. The lack of a course board on the committee boat (which I want to make clear, wasn't clarified either way - this is hypothetical) could make way for some very interesting problems. A few of which you noted in your post. If the protest committee felt it was the race committee's negligence then they should have thrown out the entire race, however if the course was changed in accordance with the SI's and the RRoS then only the offenders should have been thrown out. The averaging of their scores, indicates to me that there might have been at least some error on the RC's part.

Edited by - Champipple on 11/12/2004 11:21:31

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 11:13:46

Here was the committee boat for Course #3 in Key West last year.... you can see their course board in the photo

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 12:33:08

to me PRO means primary race official, am I close?

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 14:40:02

Close Frank - but don't light the cigar!

"Principal Race Officer"
Derek

Edited by - on

takokichi
Captain

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USA
321 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 17:27:53

Sometimes the RC has to pick a course based on the conditions . . .

Edited by - takokichi on 11/12/2004 17:29:57

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 18:28:56

Duane - there was indeed a course board on the stern of the RC boat -in fact we only noticed the course change as we started the race at the RC boat end, otherwise we would have sailed the wrong one!
My personal opinion is that the RC did follow procedure in that the change was made during a postpone and was posted before the actual prep signal (although "Lima" would have been a nice courtesy) and as such the wrong course boats should have been DSQ'd and the race should stand. (Of course our opinion is slightly colored by the fact that we took a 1st in the race)

Also it should be noted that this RC was running 3 fleets - Spin, PHRF and Cruiser. The race for the Spins was also thrown out because their course was also changed.
Derek

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5937 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 19:21:55

This kind of thing can often be avoided if the RC goes beyond the minimum requirements of the rules, and, instead of just posting the course change, verbally tells the racers about it and asks them to pass the word to the others, and even announces it on the VHF for anyone who is listening. It's a little extra effort, but it can prevent the kind of controversy that resulted in this case. For our RC, that extra effort is S.O.P.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 19:58:58

I agree Steve. If the RC had just hoisted "Lima" it would have saved the whole thing! (Many of the Spin fleet don't carry VHF's).
Derek

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2004 : 20:38:35

Although I'm not a racer, I do enjoy reading about racing.

Like John, I was wondering how the 5 boats who sailed the wrong course "rounded the mark" when that "mark" was moved by the RC?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2004 : 00:24:05

Don - the weather mark (the initial mark to round) was moved (and anchored!) before the second sequence was begun. On an inland lake the marks are pretty visible (orange tetrahedrons).
Derek

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2004 : 07:52:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Although I'm not a racer, I do enjoy reading about racing.

Like John, I was wondering how the 5 boats who sailed the wrong course "rounded the mark" when that "mark" was moved by the RC?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This can occur a number of ways Don. The easiest way is if its a fixed mark course. Around here, three of the yacht clubs have a permanent compass rose course set up for racing. For club racing it minimizes the need for a mark boat and and possible an offset mark boat.

For the larger regattas not using the set marks, the mark boat would have been instructed by the committee boat to drop a new mark, prior to retrieving the old mark.

This particular incident happened before the start, a similar situation (sailing wrong course) can occur on wind shifts where the course is changed in the middle of the race. Many times a new mark (different color) will be dropped 20 degrees from where the original is. The original has to remain in the water because other boats in later starts still have to round it. The lead boats then have to be on their game because of two marks in the water.

With busy leeward roundings I've been in a situation where everyone is busy hoisting the jib, dropping the spinaker and getting to the high side as quickly as possible and no one looks at the chase boat with the new mark info. Then you have the old addage, if I wasn't in first, I would have known where to go!

dw

Edited by - Champipple on 11/16/2004 07:53:22

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2004 : 16:54:43

What do I know?

It seems to me the "postponement" meant that the original start and course had been canceled, and as a skipper it is my responsibility to make sure I know the course I'm supposed to race - that means: before the warning gun of the "restart" I need to sail by the RC and see what the course is. The boats that went the wrong way shpould be scored "dnf" (All IMHO)

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sailing2
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2004 : 23:32:33

Don you have it right

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2004 : 10:14:00

Also totally IMMO stuff...

Common sense tells me that when roughly half the fleet goes the wrong way, something had gone seriously amiss. A couple boats getting it 'wrong', well, that's different, but half the fleet is a pretty big proportion to ignore.

At some point one would think that notions of sportsmanship might also come into play. Personally, I wouldn't want to win a regatta in which half the boats were eliminated due to a mix-up.

You might say the victory cup would be a little 'tarnished'. But that's just me.

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